I also think that Sharon is possibly going a little too far in her `what is life' argument. Nobody here (even pro choice people) would possibly suggest that an abortion at 36 weeks is something they would agree with. Clearly at 36 weeks, you have a baby. Clearly at 20 weeks you have a baby. Perhaps at five or six weeks people might make a distinction - even before 12 weeks, which is when the vast majority of abortions take place. Although at 12 weeks, I was able to see each and every individual verterbra in my child's back, and count her limbs and see her face and hear her heartbeat. So I'm thinking she was a baby at 12 weeks, too.

I still can't get past the ridiculous notion that anything with a beating heart could be called anything but life. If it's not life, I still want to know what it is. Nobody who has asserted that has answered this question and I've asked it lots of times.

__________________
We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

Sharon, how was my post idiotic, that is exactly what you said.

You have stated numerous times that the baby is part of the mother so those limbs and organs are hers too. Which would mean just what i said above.

Why don't you try disproving me instead of acting like an 8 year old and saying, "nu-uh, your dumb."

__________________
"Your old road is Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

"There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."

-Bob Dylan, greatest singer/songwriter ever to live.

It would depend on the reasons for the late abortion. No late abortion is done just because the mother 'feels like it'. There must be something wrong with the baby, or her life is in jeopardy to even allow an abortion at that stage.
Depending on the situation, I may agree with the abortion, or disagree, but just because I disagree, doesn't mean I don't stand by the womans decision. After all, the decision is hers, and her alone, whether I agree with it or not.


It is a life but not a life. It is two things at once. I think many pro choicers are divided over this one. For me, it's a life, as if it weren't a life it would never be born, but at the same time, it is still only a potential life, as there is no way of knowing whether that life will live another day.
It is not a life like mine or yours, it is different. I think that much is obvious.

__________________
Sharon Marie Tate: January 24 1943 - 9 August 1969
Forever Remembered

You can stop with the BS now. I've read your posts quite often and you absolutely have justified abortion based on current emotions. You're above statement is not factual and you have proven that your own opinions justify it as such.

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

I can justify an abortion, doesn't mean I agree. If the woman wants one, she can have one, no matter if I agree or not. I support choice, and if her choice is to abort, that is up to her.

__________________
Sharon Marie Tate: January 24 1943 - 9 August 1969
Forever Remembered

It certainly isn't about what choice you claim to agree with. As you stated, No late abortion is done just because the mother 'feels like it'. I doubt that is a true statement since pro-choicers such as yourself justify abortion for that reason.

__________________
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

You just won the award for the 'Most Idiotic Post of the Day'!


Congratulations.

Typical Liberal mentality. Why hold someone accountable for there actions? That would be wrong!

Again, your reasoning is severely flawed. There is no way of knowing whether you or I (or any other person after their birth) will live another day, either.

All we can go on is the probability that we will still be alive tomorrow. I probably will be. You probably will be. My unborn baby probably will be.

The only thing certain about life is that nothing is certain about it, other than that we will die - ALL of us - unborn or not, at some point. It would take something unusual and spontaneous for my unborn child to die at this stage. Exactly the same way as it would take something unusual and spontaneous for me to die at this stage of my life.

These ideas that you have - `life but not a life', `human vs human being', - they're preposterous. You can absolutely believe in the right to choose if you feel that that is your ideology on this issue. I believe in the right to choose also. BUT to give the reasons that you give are really just so surreal and they are false premises no matter how you try to convince yourself that they aren't.

It's almost as if to have your belief you have to justify it somehow in your mind by drawing distinctions where there aren't any, by making up these strange ideas, because otherwise you, too, would find aborting a foetus after a certain time repellant and wrong (which wouldn't go - in your mind - with the belief system you've set up for yourself).

Answer me this question. What are other living creatures prior to and after birth? Is an unborn dog a puppy, and a puppy being after it's born? Is an unborn cow a calf before it's born, and a calf being afterwards? Is an chick in an egg a chick before it's hatched, and a chicken being afterwards?

Is a child that dies from cot death not to be mourned because it's only been alive a few months? Is a ten year old who is run over by a car not to be considered because it's mother has been alive much longer? Is an unborn foetus who dies at 8 months gestation because the umbilical cord has accidentally got wrapped around it's neck and strangled it not to mean anything to it's mother, because it's not a human being yet?

When you apply these notions of yours to real life they collapse.

You are entitled to your opinion on choice. Women are entitled to their choice in the matter of abortion, too - mainly because the law in most countries allows it. I believe in women's choice. I don't believe that a woman should have a legal choice to abort a foetus after a certain point in her gestation. (And to be honest, it might not be `illegal' yet, but you'd be pretty hard pressed in Australia to find a doctor who would perform an abortion after 20 weeks - if they even would go that late. They just won't do it)

However, I can't make up air-and-dust notions that make no sense in order for me to believe in a woman's right to choose.

Believe what you will - but make your reasons for your belief valid ones. Because anything else just damages your credibility, and people will stop listening.

__________________
We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

Good for you, but no one can prove whether that fetus is an actual life or a potential life, so we form our own opinions. That is mine, as I so not know eithor way. I believe it must be a life, but at the same time it isn't, because I do not know for sure. And for that matter, neithor do you. All you have is an opinion.

__________________
Sharon Marie Tate: January 24 1943 - 9 August 1969
Forever Remembered