You are a very smart person, you tell me...

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I'm not pro-choice, per se, because I believe in legal limits to abortion. However, I do think abortion should remain legal up to the 24 week period, or at a minimum, during the first trimester. I have no real ethical issues with abortion in the first trimester because I myself have held a 12-week old fetus in my hand (I miscarried before my daughter was born). There is no way that a fetus at that stage of development is viable outside of the womb.

I think every abortion is a tragedy, and I think we should do everything in our power to keep abortion safe, legal and RARE. Most of all, rare. All too often women feel trapped into abortion because of their own circumstances, and there is little support or help for them.

On the other hand, once a fetus makes it to viability outside of the womb (24 weeks or thereafter), that is significant for me.

I don't think this is an issue that should be decided based upon archaic religious documents, but rather, it's a decision that should be made by women and medical professionals. And, our abortion laws should be moderate and as respectful of life as possible.

Some progress is better than no progress. Abortion will never be outlawed at this point. Better to do what we can than become mired in fanaticism.

What concerns me far more than abortion, however, is the lack of mercy that is shown by religious fanatics to women who are in these desperate situations.

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

You had me right up until the last part. I am sympathetic. I had a son who was murdered by a post-partum psychotic wife (now ex-wife). He was three months old, it was over the Atlantic Ocean, on an airplane. I know what it is like, from a father's perspective, to loose a child. My brother's wife had eleven miscarriages before they found the right hormone to use.

But where I take exception is being lumped in with Randle Terry and Bernard Shlepian (or whatever his name is). I am not a "religious fanatic. I am not a "sub-class" of human to be relegated to second class citizen status by the "enlightened".

I am a man, who thinks, feels, trusts, loves, and follows his convictions with passion and conviction. Just like you. And I will not be silenced because my opinions make anyone "feel bad". We have a right to pursue happiness in this country, not enforce it or demand it from others.

No matter how you couch it. Killing that child inside your womb is wrong. I don't care what medical term you use. I still see fingers, toes, and a brain, warm and happy.

I respect your softer answer. But I resent these very unenlightened shallow characterizations. Pretty soon one of you is going to set Chicago on fire and blame one of us, and then it will be a whole big mess again.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

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"If the substance of life is information, transmitted through genes, then society and culture are essentially immense information transmission systems, and the city, a huge external memory storage device."

Purists are intolerably dull-thinkers.

How many children do you have? (I have "too many" my wife says, still holding that 11lb 1oz.er against me.)

I held everyone one of my children in my hands right after birth and then gave them to my wife. Never a pre-meee... But I know enough about new-borns, from a lay person's vantage point to know what I know. All of my kids had to be made to cry after being born. And I have seen my share of pre-mee's because my wife's best friend works in neo-icu where they are kept. I have heard a 26 week old baby cry. I have seen them squirm and respond to touch and voice. Personally, I don't care what Dr. So-and-so says, I have heard parents of those children rave about how their babies are already developing personalities.

The fact that the baby cried when the doc took his tool and poked it's foot, is enough for me.

I don't think I could make my case any stronger than this... Thank you.

To me, a human being, in or outside the womb is someone special. They have a right to life. No one in our society has a right to remove that life, when the human being has done nothing to deserve death. Period. If you are a woman and you have a life in you, no matter how it was started, it deserves a chance to live. If you don't want the baby, give the baby to someone who does.

Oh, and one more thing. The number of neurons in the brain does not denote intelligence accurately. My cat is a lot smarter than I am...

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

I don't want to sound harsh, but I've heard cows lowing in the fields when they're hungry. I'm a mom with two kids and I don't believe a 24-week-old fetus is more cognitively advanced than a cow.

See, I'm not religious. Humanity, to me, is just another animal. A more highly evolved animal, with a larger brain, but still, an animal. An animal with pretensions, you might say.

So, the fact that it causes a cow pain for me to eat it hasn't stopped me from eating hamburger. The issue for me, at least, is when you draw the line.

When does the fetus, in fact, become fully human. To me, it reaches that point when it is survivable outside of the womb, though, actually, the human baby develops cognitively much more slowly than animals do in the first few months of life. Quite frankly, newborn animals, particularly livestock, are far more functional in their newborn moments than a human baby is.

Do you eat meat? If so, why is it okay to cause suffering for some animals for your convenience, but not for others?

By the way, US, you need to re-read my response to you above. I was not attacking you. I don't know why you felt I was. Do you consider yourself a religious fanatic? I personally would not put you in that category, but if I should, let me know.

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

I am going to extend your argument, so forgive me in advance for it's vulgarity, but I must...

If sheep = cow = pig = chicken = human, with the variable only being a brain with the capacity to process different biochemical processes, then what's the harm in exterminated the ones we don't want? Who cares? Reduce human beings to an equivalency of animals, and we can truly commit mass genocide without a pang of grief.

I eat meat, by the way. I have killed many types of creatures from bugs to deer. I have enjoyed the meals they provided, and the crumpled mass of smoldering exo-skeleton falling from my bug light, to the earth. Would I shoot the fat guy at the beach because he was blocking my view of the kids, nope.

And I wasn't saying you attacked me, as much as I was pointing out a pet peeve of mine, I don't like it when posts include broad stroke characterizations that are based more on opinion than fact. If you have an opinion, express it, but don't suggest its a proven fact.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

yes, catz. there is a double standard at work, humans have a monopoly on life that is valued, until they develop an emotional attachment (pets for example) - then its just inexcusable. i actually find it odd that its the religious (particularly those that adhere to the bible) who seem to take offense to abortion the most; a lot of scripture seems to undermine the value of human life.

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https://www.voteforchange.com/

Can you quantify "a lot"? And God, who is the creator of man, holds the keys. The Bible doesn't attempt to hide that.

And if the Bible is about man's cruelty, man's sin, man's selfishness, man's greed, man's damage to those around him, then how can that book not contain stories of human life being less than what it should be.

If you read the Bible, you can't possibly come away with any conclusion other than "geeeeze, I wonder why God didn't just wipe them all out and start over..."

And according to ardent humanists, emotions are nothing more than bio-chemical changes in the brain. So who cares about life and death, only what I must do to improve my life and delay my death!
What secularists don't often say is that they presume that there is no human soul that lives beyond the body. And why not, you all have an investment in that outcome, hoping, trusting, and willing it to be true.

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"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution." March 4, 1869, Grant's First Inaugural Address

god has harmed and killed people, and people have harmed and killed others in his name, in the bible. when i read the bible, i cant come away with any conclusion other than "this makes no sense." secularists dont all presume there is no life beyond death, i know i dont. ive simply come to terms with the fact that i just dont know.

why didnt god just wipe them all out and start over? maybe because god cant. does god have the power to do anything and everything? can god really see the future? can god know everything? if so, why bother giving people life on this planet? god already knows what theyll do, right? isnt giving us life a waste of time in that context? why not just put people in heaven or hell from the start, since god already knows everything? why the theatrics? is god really that powerful? if thats the case, how can anyone influence gods actions? doesnt the belief that humans can pray or act in order to influence gods judgment strike you as a bit presumptuous?

is there a god? how can anyone possibly know? if thats still unanswered, how can anyone possibly claim to know what he wants or how to influence him? because the bible says? and what of other religions? are we to believe what their gods say, too? why not? whats the difference?

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https://www.voteforchange.com/