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Old 02-11-2008, 12:08 PM
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Lightbulb Some interesting thoughts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMS View Post
god has harmed and killed people, and people have harmed and killed others in his name, in the bible.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
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when i read the bible, i cant come away with any conclusion other than "this makes no sense." secularists dont all presume there is no life beyond death, i know i dont. ive simply come to terms with the fact that i just dont know.
A very honest answer.

Quote:
why didnt god just wipe them all out and start over? maybe because god cant.
I don't think he will do it with a flood, anyway.

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does god have the power to do anything and everything?
Yes.
Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted
.
Genesis 18:14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.
Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Quote:
can god really see the future?
Acts 15:16-18 [16] 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, [17] that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' [18] that have been known for ages.

Isaiah 46:9-10 [9] Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. [10] I make known the end from the begin- ning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Quote:
can god know everything?
Yes.
1 John 3:19-20 [19] This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence [20] whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
Job 37:16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.
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if so, why bother giving people life on this planet?
Because it pleases him to do so.

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god already knows what theyll do, right? isnt giving us life a waste of time in that context? why not just put people in heaven or hell from the start, since god already knows everything?
Nope. et.al.

Quote:
why the theatrics? is god really that powerful? if thats the case, how can anyone influence gods actions?
James 4:12-15 [12] There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you -- who are you to judge your neighbor? [13] Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." [14] Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. [15] Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."
Quote:
doesnt the belief that humans can pray or act in order to influence gods judgment strike you as a bit presumptuous?
Nope. Because he promises this:
Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says -- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel -- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
1 Corinthians 1:9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.


Quote:
is there a god? how can anyone possibly know?
By faith. There are certainly enough road signs to get there. All you have to do is begin following them.

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if thats still unanswered, how can anyone possibly claim to know what he wants or how to influence him?
By reading the Bible.
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Quote:
because the bible says? and what of other religions?
Jer 25:6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.
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are we to believe what their gods say, too? why not? whats the difference?
Consider why you believe or don't believe things people say. Ask God to introduce you to people who actually serve Him, and He will. I promise. But you must believe that if He is real, then He will hear you and answer you. Believe me. He worked it out with me... I have no complaints. I only wish I knew him sooner in my life.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2008, 12:32 PM
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all the questions on power and seeing the future were rhetorical, btw. it still makes no sense. god is aware of everything, past, present, future, yet we go through this charade to be judged later, supposedly. and if god created everything, hes also responsible for the flaws of his creations, how can god do no wrong if he created everything and wrong exists? that makes no sense whatsoever. if youre god is actually real, he sounds like a sadist.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2008, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usgrant7 View Post
I am going to extend your argument, so forgive me in advance for it's vulgarity, but I must...

If sheep = cow = pig = chicken = human, with the variable only being a brain with the capacity to process different biochemical processes, then what's the harm in exterminated the ones we don't want? Who cares? Reduce human beings to an equivalency of animals, and we can truly commit mass genocide without a pang of grief.

I eat meat, by the way. I have killed many types of creatures from bugs to deer. I have enjoyed the meals they provided, and the crumpled mass of smoldering exo-skeleton falling from my bug light, to the earth. Would I shoot the fat guy at the beach because he was blocking my view of the kids, nope.

And I wasn't saying you attacked me, as much as I was pointing out a pet peeve of mine, I don't like it when posts include broad stroke characterizations that are based more on opinion than fact. If you have an opinion, express it, but don't suggest its a proven fact.
Humans are animals. The belief homo sapiens are anything more than primates with exceptional intellect (and weak physical abilities) is based in religious mythology - not science, not logic, not secularism.

If you're willing to kill an animal with X cognitive abilities you should be willing to kill a human with <=X.

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How many children do you have? (I have "too many" my wife says, still holding that 11lb 1oz.er against me.)
Frankly, it's none of your business.

Quote:
I have heard a 26 week old baby cry.
I've heard a duck wail after getting shot in the tush. Senses are wonderful, aren't they?

Quote:
I held everyone one of my children in my hands right after birth and then gave them to my wife. Never a pre-meee... But I know enough about new-borns, from a lay person's vantage point to know what I know. All of my kids had to be made to cry after being born. And I have seen my share of pre-mee's because my wife's best friend works in neo-icu where they are kept. I have heard a 26 week old baby cry. I have seen them squirm and respond to touch and voice. Personally, I don't care what Dr. So-and-so says, I have heard parents of those children rave about how their babies are already developing personalities.

The fact that the baby cried when the doc took his tool and poked it's foot, is enough for me.
Not caring what a medical professional says is a sign of willful ignorance. I'm not trying to sound rude, but I can't tolerate dismissive behavior.

Secondly, I have no reason to believe anecdotal stories. You can claim to be the mythologized George Washington, but without evidence I have no way of telling whether or not you're just spinning up a convenient story. Births before the 32nd week are extremely rare and remarkably dangerous. I don't know of a single case where a child didn't have to spend the duration of their missed gestation process in critical condition. Nonetheless, I'll assume you're telling the truth ...

In which case I point out that 1.) fetuses develop at different rates and 2.) crying and breathing are not a sign of high level cognitive abilities. As I started earlier Terri Schiavo could cry, but her mind was gone long before her body. Likewise, response does not indicate pain. The two are related but not the same thing. Indeed some evidence shows the cortex does not even develop to the point where babies feel pain like we do until after birth.

I hope you realize to me the whole point of this conversation on pain doesn't rest on whether or not abortion should be criminalized, but rather if pain should be subdued with medicine. We kill animals who feel pain. I'm interested in intelligence.
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Last edited by GeneCosta; 02-11-2008 at 12:36 PM.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2008, 12:53 PM
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God, who is the creator of man, holds the keys.
Ah, but the question is: which god?
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2008, 01:21 PM
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Icon13 Intransigence and the Schutzstaffel

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneCosta View Post
Humans are animals. The belief homo sapiens are anything more than primates with exceptional intellect (and weak physical abilities) is based in religious mythology - not science, not logic, not secularism.

If you're willing to kill an animal with X cognitive abilities you should be willing to kill a human with <=X.

Frankly, it's none of your business.

I've heard a duck wail after getting shot in the tush. Senses are wonderful, aren't they?

Not caring what a medical professional says is a sign of willful ignorance. I'm not trying to sound rude, but I can't tolerate dismissive behavior.

Secondly, I have no reason to believe anecdotal stories. You can claim to be the mythologized George Washington, but without evidence I have no way of telling whether or not you're just spinning up a convenient story. Births before the 32nd week are extremely rare and remarkably dangerous. I don't know of a single case where a child didn't have to spend the duration of their missed gestation process in critical condition. Nonetheless, I'll assume you're telling the truth ...

In which case I point out that 1.) fetuses develop at different rates and 2.) crying and breathing are not a sign of high level cognitive abilities. As I started earlier Terri Schiavo could cry, but her mind was gone long before her body. Likewise, response does not indicate pain. The two are related but not the same thing. Indeed some evidence shows the cortex does not even develop to the point where babies feel pain like we do until after birth.

I hope you realize to me the whole point of this conversation on pain doesn't rest on whether or not abortion should be criminalized, but rather if pain should be subdued with medicine. We kill animals who feel pain. I'm interested in intelligence.
Judging by your apparent date of birth: 7 October, 1900. I can only assume that your are still alive, by the use of underground transplants. Do you speak German by any chance? Remember Röhm? (kidding, really) Still into animal control?

Considering your standard of evidence, your bias, and your logic, you will most likely find out that you are wrong, way too late. I pray that doesn't happen. (Is there a place to kick the dust off of my feet here?)
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:31 PM
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Default I have a great response to that.

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Originally Posted by JMS View Post
all the questions on power and seeing the future were rhetorical, btw. it still makes no sense. god is aware of everything, past, present, future, yet we go through this charade to be judged later, supposedly. and if god created everything, hes also responsible for the flaws of his creations, how can god do no wrong if he created everything and wrong exists? that makes no sense whatsoever. if youre god is actually real, he sounds like a sadist.
Job 40:7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. (Buck up, boy, I am going to ask you some questions.) 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? (Who are you to question the Lord your God?)9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? (Are you even in my league?) 10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. (Can you create the galaxies and use them to adron yourself with?) 11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. (Can anyone stay your wrath with force?)12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. (See into the hearts of men?) 13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. (Make alive, make dead with merely your will?) 14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (I can save you, and I can make whatever is your problem, better.)
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:03 PM
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im still waiting for that great response. i have a feeling ill be waiting for a long time.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:22 PM
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Icon21 Longer than you wish...

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im still waiting for that great response. i have a feeling ill be waiting for a long time.
And sooner than you expect, I would wager...

Wink, wink... nod, nod...
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Old 02-11-2008, 05:37 PM
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So, I don't accept your holy books. Do you have any other way to make your point, other than resorting to archaic writings that have very little bearing on modern science?
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Old 02-11-2008, 06:25 PM
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Post Hi Cat!

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Originally Posted by catzmeow View Post
So, I don't accept your holy books. Do you have any other way to make your point, other than resorting to archaic writings that have very little bearing on modern science?
Ok, let me put it to you this way.

You have a pile of metal parts. The guy who designed the machine is in a remote area of the world. Your boss says that the designer left some instuctions and he wants you to put it together.
If the designer left some really crappy instructions, and you can't put it together without some good instructions, what do you do?
If the designer left some really good instructions, and there are people all around you who are getting it, and they put the machine together. Does it make sense for you to (*)(*)(*)(*) and moan because you don’t' like how the guy wrote the instructions.
Or
If the designer left some instructions, but he wants you to actually read them before you put the machine together, do you have the right to fuss if you can't put it together without reading the instructions? Does it help you to deny that the instructions are actually written by the designer?

There are many more illustrations I could use, but you are smart, you can take it from here.

My guess is that you don't like the way the machine was designed, you don't like having a boss, and if you were given a chance, you would try and run the place yourself. All of which will prevent you from getting it, even if I stood a flaming bush in your living room.
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