‘In the womb I knew you’ – from conception our souls are known.
‘In the belly I formed you’ – Creator of our flesh and bone.
But what do we do with the souls that He has sown?

What God has created – let no one put asunder.
His command is as clear the crashing of thunder:
He calls us all to honor His creative wonder.

For the souls, callings, and even personalities are formed prenatally:
Like the twin fetuses Jacob and Esau who grappled incessantly
He bestowed their souls at conception, as body formed physically

Isaac was formed in Sarah’s body and from conception was ordained
To father a great nation as Gabriel to Abraham explained.
In that one single embryo – a great eternal nation was contained.

Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim: the time of their physical birth
Had no meaning for the eternal Lord of Heaven and all the Earth.
No relevance upon their blessing… and yet we place the entire worth…

Samuel and Jeremiah the Prophets and yes even Sampson strong and tall.
Were called to serve the Lord from their mother’s womb… as are we all.
Given up for adoption: Samuel grew-up and answered the Father’s call.

The unborn babies of Elizabeth and Mary which God had created,
At the approach of the tiny embryo of Jesus, the Baptist fetus was elated.
The Eucharistic flesh and soul - eternal life itself had been initiated

Abortion is perhaps the greatest judgement on modern society.
For the loss of a foetus is described as the just curse for infidelity.
When we break our covenants – we condemn our posterity.

Fetuses are clearly our children and God calls the killing of our progeny
An abomination - which devalues motherhood - the ultimate misogyny.
Both Men and Women trading in God given roles for prideful androgyny.

The promise of God’s blessings, on a mother’s womb does rest.
But when we reject His gifts – we deny that we’ve been blessed.
So both father and mother celebrate, unite, and let true thanks be confessed.

Fear of the unknown and the future is not what God bestows.
Have faith that He will provide for your needs as the little one grows.
He cares for you much more than you may suppose.

Let us not abort our souls in the pursuit of worldly pride and sin.
But let us birth our spirits to the Lord and invite the Holy Spirit in.
That all fruits of the womb and faith may be upon us and our next of kin.

For if you agree that life and soul proceed from God and are a benediction
Then their destruction is an act of disrespect and irresponsible dereliction
So welcome the bond of parenthood and treat it not as an affliction.

Become not a wretched disciple of Molech - sacrificing your infants
The land shall eject in violent vomiting fits all such inhabitants
And great will be the wailing and sound of their laments.

The hearts of some have clearly turned away from the Lord.
The Creator is forgotten and abhorred - who instead should be adored.
The reaper’s bloody scalpel stands as a sign of the revocation of reward.

This culture of death is an infection which continues to fester
Heal us oh Lord with love for your gifts from the first to last trimester.
And let not thy people-in-embryo be subjected to Lucifer’s molester

Copyright (c) Daniel Partlow 2007

1. Abortion and infant abandonment was common throughout the world, including the Mediterranean basin and Middle East in "biblical" times, the time of Jesus and for centuries later.
2. Rabbinic law considered the fetus as the property of the father. Should another man beat a pregnant woman who was not his wife and kill the fetus, the perpetrator was financially liable to the would-be father.
3. Many hundreds of specific behaviors are mentioned in your scriptures and nowhere among them is abortion. That's because it was not considered immoral.

[quote="apotropoxy";p="384827"]1. Abortion and infant abandonment was common throughout the world, including the Mediterranean basin and Middle East in "biblical" times, the time of Jesus and for centuries later.[/qoute]

So was mass murder, warfare, torture, and slavery - so what?

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Read this post quick before the mods delete it!

[quote][quote="Jake";p="384889"]1. Murder (mass or otherwise) was and is considered immoral and is proscribed by scripture.
2. Warfare was and is generally acceptable to most and is not categorically condemned by scripture. I invite you to read Augustine's reflections on the Just War.
3. Torture was and continues to be practiced throughout the world. It, too, is not condemned by scripture.
4. Slavery was ubiquitous throughout the world in "biblical" times.

Using scripture to condemn abortion or infant abandonment ignores the simple fact that scripture is silent on these practices. If the writers of scripture had thought the common practice of abortion and infant abandonment were immoral, they would have so written.

The initiating post used a bible dump to conjure up an argument. You need to follow the thread from the beginning to make a meaningful contribution.

[quote="apotropoxy";p="384953"][quote]Uh, well no. The bible says "you shall not kill".

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And yet that same collection of scribblings has various forms of approved techniques for executions. Huh.
The "Thou Shall Not Kill" was not meant to apply to the fetus. We know this because most all societies, including the Jews, allowed for infant abandonment. The Hebrews also had specific laws that dealt with the killing of a fetus. It amounted to a property tort.
The application of the "Thou Shall Not Kill" mitzvah to a fetus is a relatively recent development.
You are free to argue its morality all you like but you are not free to invent history.

http://www.politicalforum.com/viewto...22808&start=16

Read the posts from June 12th and 17th. It's pretty much the same discussion. I just never heard back from Apo.

Tell me more about the approved techniques of execution. Just curious. BTW, the teachings of the Bible and what Jewish people approve of are two very different things. Again, please refer to the above listed link.

Take Care

[quote] Burning, Gen. 38:24; Lev. 20:14; 21:9; Jer. 29:22; Ezek. 23:25; Dan. 3:19-23;
stoning, Lev. 20:2,27; 24:14; Num. 14:10; 15:33-36; Deut. 13:10; 17:5; 22:21,24; Josh. 7:25; 1 Kin. 21:10; Ezek. 16:40;
hanging, Gen. 40:22; Deut. 21:22,23; Josh. 8:29;
beheading, Matt. 14:10; Mark 6:16,27,28;
the sword, Ex. 32:27,28; 1 Kin. 2:25,34,46; Acts 12:2.
Executed by the witnesses, Deut. 13:9; 17:7; Acts 7:58;
by the congregation, Num. 15:35,36; Deut. 13:9.
The "bible" (the term Christians use to describe many of the holy scriptures of the Hebrews) was written by and for Jews. The Jews have their scriptures, the learned commentary on them (Talmud) and a long set of traditions. I think they are much more likely to appreciate the context and meaning of their own works than non-Jews.

Not completely true. One example I can think of is the apostle Paul. He was a Roman citizen that was born in Tarsus, present day Turkey I believe. Another thing, Jesus’ teachings and the Bible were for intended for Jews and Gentiles (non-jews) alike. As far as I know, current day Judaism does not recognize Jesus as the son of God and they only follow the first 5 books of the Old Testament. That leaves 61 remaining books of the Bible.

As far as the “approved techniques of execution” that you listed, most of them were methods of execution performed by non-Christians in the New Testament and those that were not under the Israelite Laws of the Old Testament. So you can hardly say that the teachings of the Bible or Christianity condone murder.

Anyways, back to the thread. Please, if you comment on anything I posted here, comment on this statement at some point.
The biblical text that I can think of doesn’t elaborate on intentionally causing a woman to miscarry. It does however state that in the case of an ACCIDENTAL miscarriage, the perpetrator must pay a fine, determined by the husband and agreed on by a judge. If the fetus had no worth then there would be no fine. If the perpetrator INTENTIONALLY caused a miscarriage then it would only make sense that the penalty would be more severe.

Take care.

[quote]So? The Hebrew scriptures were written by and for the Jews. Jesus, Paul (Saul) and all the contemporary followers of the Jesus teachings were Jews.

.
Jesus' teachings were focused on his fellow Jews. I have no doubt that he would apply his morality to gentiles.
Correct.
The first followers of Jesus didn't recognize him as a deity, either. This apotheosis began in later generations of followers. They became known as Christians.
The Jews do not recognize the Christian trope of the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" They have what they usually call sacred scripture. Here is an actual list of their collection:

• Beres hit - Genesis
  Shemot - Exodus
  Vayikra - Leviticus
  Bamidbar - Numbers
  Devarim - Deuteronomy
  Joshua
  Judges
  I Samuel
  II Samuel
  I Kings
  II Kings
  Isaiah
  Jeremiah
  Ezekiel
  Hosea
  Joel
  Amos
  Obadiah
  Jonah
  Micah
  Nahum
  Habakkuk
  Zephaniah
  Haggai
  Zechariah
  Malachi
  
  Psalms
  Proverbs
  Job
  Song of Songs
  Ruth
  Lamentations
  Ecclesiastes
  Esther
  Daniel
  Ezra
  Nehemiah
  I Chronicles
  II Chronicles

1. I didn't say murder was condoned. I pointed out a variety of modes of executions. Hanging, stoning, drowning, banishment in the wilderness (probable starvation) were all routine procedures.

I know. The Jewish law of the day did.
Attribution please.
How could an accidental miscarriage have a perpetrator?
I have repeatedly stated that the fetus did have worth. That worth was defined in monetary terms.
Those penalties were monetary.