Thread: Oklahoma Senate overwhelmingly approves bill saying life begins at conception

Originally Posted by Archer0915

Hey you can however you want. I was making observations. I am personally Pro-Death. The more unwanted they kill now the less me and mine have to deal with later.

No wonder we as a nation are going down the tubes.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

It makes no sense. To tell a woman that she is not carrying a person…that she can kill the life in her anyway because SHE OWNS THE RIGHTS TO HER OWN BODY, that it is a personal decision. Then for the law to turn around and tell her….oh by the way…you just lost the rights to your body because we think that life we did not recognize needs to be recognized. It makes no sense it is not logical. It was a way the courts could get out of totally looking bad and inhumane. That is hypocritical thinking. To own something then lose it.

People own things and then lose them all the time. Court's routinely garnish wages, lock bank accounts, confiscate personal property, and even take land from you through eminent domain. The concept is nothing new.

So for me to work to ban abortion is logical by this way of thinking. Because if you take the rights to the woman's body away….at anytime during the pregnancy…then you can ban it altogether and tell her she has no rights at all to kill.

No you can't. You could argue that in court, sure, but it's up to a judge on whether that's actually a valid argument. Plus, it all depends on the reasoning behind the limitations and whether they conflict with the spirit, intent, and application of the law. Study the legal system, you will find examples of this all over the place.

And to equate this to owning a gun or car…is ridiculous. We are talking about life here and the killing of an innocent human being. That is something you don't seem to get, and don't seem to care about.

What I chose to use as my examples is not the point, as they are just examples of the effect of the logic you are using here. It would result in exactly the situations I outlined, and obviously they are ridiculous. The law can easily put restrictions on something without completely outlawing it, and I gave examples of that very thing. The abortion debate is no different. The law can recognize that abortion is a mother's right but still put reasonable limitations on it. What those limitations are and why they exist isn't something that is up to me or any single person, it's up to the courts, the people whose job it is to interpret the law and how it can be applied.

Junkieturtle said,

"People own things and then lose them all the time. Court's routinely garnish wages, lock bank accounts, confiscate personal property, and even take land from you through eminent domain. The concept is nothing new.

No court should force a man to pay for something they never owned and had a choice in. You agree right?

" The law can easily put restrictions on something without completely outlawing it, and I gave examples of that very thing. The abortion debate is no different. The law can recognize that abortion is a mother's right but still put reasonable limitations on it. What those limitations are and why they exist isn't something that is up to me or any single person, it's up to the courts, the people whose job it is to interpret the law and how it can be applied.[/QUOTE]

Sure they can and the abortion issue is one example of how the law makes no sense and is whisky washy. The law was passed because the courts identified the woman as the sole ownership of her body. Her body…her decision. How do you after owning your body…have that right taken away…because the court all of a sudden said you must carry something, they did not identify as a person to begin with? You do agree right? That a woman should not lose ownership over her body…that the law is wrong in taking that right away?

Reasonable? LMAO Please. Believe me we are total opposites on this one…because our world views and everything we value are total opposites. I would suppose that we would disagree on every issue that ever was. I would never align myself with someone who had views as you do on especially this issue. For me it is that important…and the life issues says a lot about a persons character. And I will stop there.

The people who make law and view it….do it with bias…that is why laws change.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Junkieturtle said,

No court should force a man to pay for something they never owned and had a choice in. You agree right?

Yes. And I don't really argue the child support angle on abortion because it's a separate issue. I can see both sides of that argument.

The people who make law and view it….do it with bias…that is why laws change.

I can easily say the same about morality and religion.

Reasonable? LMAO Please. Believe me we are total opposites on this one…because our world views and everything we value are total opposites. I would suppose that we would disagree on every issue that ever was. I would never align myself with someone who had views as you do on especially this issue. For me it is that important…and the life issues says a lot about a persons character. And I will stop there.

You don't have to tell me twice that we are opposites. But, I'd be willing to bet we have some common ground somewhere. For instance, you already brought up rape. I would imagine that we are both in agreement that rape is never okay.

Originally Posted by Junkieturtle

Yes. And I don't really argue the child support angle on abortion because it's a separate issue. I can see both sides of that argument.



I can easily say the same about morality and religion.



You don't have to tell me twice that we are opposites. But, I'd be willing to bet we have some common ground somewhere. For instance, you already brought up rape. I would imagine that we are both in agreement that rape is never okay.

You said your a moral relativist. If you are then rape is neither good or bad. Some people might think that rape is justified if the couple is married and the woman refuses sex. It is this way in some cultures. ARe you saying they are wrong? What right do you have to impose your morality on someone else?

I think rape in all circumstances is wrong….but based on what you said you were ….it can't be this way for you.

if you’re a moral relativist things can be good or bad for you and others. All rape can be wrong to you if you want laws you agree with you join up with people that feel the same way you do its no reason to accept rape from people who are ok with it


You just can’t say there objectively wrong just because rape can be acceptable to them

Originally Posted by churchmouse

You said your a moral relativist. If you are then rape is neither good or bad. Some people might think that rape is justified if the couple is married and the woman refuses sex. It is this way in some cultures. ARe you saying they are wrong? What right do you have to impose your morality on someone else?

I think rape in all circumstances is wrong….but based on what you said you were ….it can't be this way for you.

Moral relativism does not mean I don't ever think something is good or bad. It means I examine each situation to see the nuance and understand what's happening instead of falling back on an absolute law that I'm trying to apply to every situation. Please, I would urge you to reread this paragraph as many times as it takes for you to understand exactly what it says so you can stop misrepresenting me.

The crux of the matter is this. When it comes to abortion, I don't believe a fetus is a person. It does not have sentience, personality, memory, intellect, or feelings. It is a bunch of cells that will one day become a human being that possesses those qualities. So every time you call me a murderer, all I'm thinking is that I'm not more a murderer than you when you walk across the grass and step on an ant. But honestly, even if I did think it was a murder, I STILL don't believe I, or anyone, has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do to her womb. If you don't even have power over your own body, you are a prisoner, a slave, utterly without rights. That's not what I would have women be. Once the child is born, it's born, it's here, the situation has changed. That's my position. I have spelled it out for you. There is no more need of misrepresentation or assumption. My position on abortion does not automatically extend to any other issues. If you want to know how I feel about a different issue, ask. Surely you have the manners and the maturity to do that.

I too believe rape in all circumstances is wrong. Instead of assuming I feel one way or another, how about just asking how I feel? I'm right here, and obviously quite willing and able to respond, mmmkay?

Originally Posted by churchmouse

Inside the womb doctors can do life saving operations and procedures.

I could post hundreds of examples like this one.

http://www.9news.com/news/world/2021...-save-her-life

That is not the same thing. 99% of the time, the woman keeps the baby alive, and in cases where fetal surgery is needed, the fetus can often survive in the womb until birth. It is when birth occurs that there are problems.

Originally Posted by churchmouse

No wonder we as a nation are going down the tubes.

Look I have read the Bible and God has no use for the poison these people spread or their offspring.

Junkieturtle said,

"Moral relativism does not mean I don't ever think something is good or bad. It means I examine each situation to see the nuance and understand what's happening instead of falling back on an absolute law that I'm trying to apply to every situation. Please, I would urge you to reread this paragraph as many times as it takes for you to understand exactly what it says so you can stop misrepresenting me."

For you there can be no absolute rule or law…no right or wrong. Its in the eye of the beholder. So whatever society thinks…is the law. One day who knows what will be legal. In my world I believe there is a right and wrong. If an accident happened….the truth exists. There is only one way that accident happened. For you…it does not matter….its what the majority think is right. No pursuit of truth in your book…because truth is relative, it does not matter.

"The crux of the matter is this. When it comes to abortion, I don't believe a fetus is a person. It does not have sentience, personality, memory, intellect, or feelings. It is a bunch of cells that will one day become a human being that possesses those qualities."

It is sad that you view life in degrees. A fetus has no rights….a newborn baby less rights than a toddler…who has less rights than a adolescent who has less rights than a teenager…who has less rights than an adult…who has less rights than a senior citizen. And to bad you condone late term abortion…infanticide as well.

"So every time you call me a murderer, all I'm thinking is that I'm not more a murderer than you when you walk across the grass and step on an ant."

I have never skippy…..called you an outright murderer. So stop it. I do believe that the people who condone abortion have a hand in it…but that does not mean murder. So the dramatization on your part does not cut it. Do you feel however like you are a part of it? Maybe its a sense of guilt that you have?

And for you to equate an ant to a living human child…is absolutely so far off base it isn't funny. That is why I despise and get ill when I talk to people who share your views on life. A child=An ant…..wow.

"But honestly, even if I did think it was a murder, I STILL don't believe I, or anyone, has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do to her womb. If you don't even have power over your own body, you are a prisoner, a slave, utterly without rights."

So you condone abortion in the ninth month? So you do think its murder. You prove why pro-choicers are ALL OVER THE BOARD ON THIS ISSUE.. ITS MURDER…NO ITS NOT….ITS A HUMAN…..NO ITS NOT…..ITS A PERSON….NO ITS NOT…..ITS A PERSON AROUND 24 WEEKS….NO 23 WEEKS…..NO 21 1/2……NO 23 3/4. YES IM FOR PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION…..NO IM NOT…..

Do you see this pattern? Not consistent….off the charts all over the place.

"That's not what I would have women be. Once the child is born, it's born, it's here, the situation has changed. That's my position. I have spelled it out for you. There is no more need of misrepresentation or assumption. My position on abortion does not automatically extend to any other issues. If you want to know how I feel about a different issue, ask. Surely you have the manners and the maturity to do that."

The situation has changed? For whom has it changed? Your position on abortion affects your worldview because you condone killing. You show who you are just by this issue alone.

"I too believe rape in all circumstances is wrong. Instead of assuming I feel one way or another, how about just asking how I feel? I'm right here, and obviously quite willing and able to respond, mmmkay?"

Ok you think its wrong….but here is the catch toots……..YOU SHOULD NOT BY YOUR OWN POSITION ON RIGHT OR WRONG….TELL ANOTHER PERSON THAT RAPE IS WRONG. WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS? ITS YOUR OPINION…AND THAT IS IT.

You tell me I have no right to impose my values and morals on other people. Then the same should apply to you. Get it?