When Does Life Begin? Part 2

**Cady** · Feb 26 2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Locke9-05

They come from stem cells, specifically adult skin stem cells. They don't come from a fertilized egg. I doubt these embryos they're discussing even have the potential to grow into human beings, and that's really what matters in this debate. They're not even talking about using them for that purpose, they're talking about using them for other health related areas. So when I see a stem cell cloned embryo grow into a healthy human baby, then I'll concede the point.

Dolly wasn't a sheep?

I agree that cloning from a skin cell hasn't produced a human being, but it has produced a human embryo, and that was the point I was making.

**Giftedone** · Feb 26 2012, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by PatriotNews

You need not list the similarities.

No skin cell has ever grown into a human.

Every human was at one time a zygote.

A skin cell is one cell of trillions of cells that make up one human body.

A zygote is not a part of a multicellular part of a greater organism, but rather a cell which sole purpose is to divide until it has formed one or more human bodies.

.

If there is an argument in here I can not find it.

I will repost:

There is no valild proof that a "human being" exists in the early stages of human development so your statement is a logical fallacy.

I agree there are differences between a zygote and a skin cell, and a heart cell however, the zygote is a whole lot more like a skin cell than it is like "a human".

The fact that the zygote is part of a process that might in the creation of a human is not valid proof that it is a human being.

You are correct that the zygote is not part of a multicellular human .. nor will it ever be or its offspring until the embryoblast (cells that form the human) starts to form.

There are no simularities

Just take this comment back ..

**Locke9-05** · Feb 26 2012, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cady

Dolly wasn't a sheep?

I agree that cloning from a skin cell hasn't produced a human being, but it has produced a human embryo, and that was the point I was making.

So be it, I'll concede that cloning has successfully produced a human embryo, but I do not believe an embryo developed from human skin stem cells has any kind of potential to grow into an adult human being, even if incubated and properly cared for. Time will tell, I suppose.

**PatriotNews** · Feb 26 2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cady

Dolly wasn't a sheep?

I agree that cloning from a skin cell hasn't produced a human being, but it has produced a human embryo, and that was the point I was making.

I don't understand what any of this has to do with when life begins. Seems like we are shifting the discussion to morality of cloning.

Originally Posted by Giftedone

If there is an argument in here I can not find it.

I will repost:

There is no valild proof that a "human being" exists in the early stages of human development so your statement is a logical fallacy.

I agree there are differences between a zygote and a skin cell, and a heart cell however, the zygote is a whole lot more like a skin cell than it is like "a human".

My position is that life begins at conception.
My statement is no more a logical fallacy than yours as you have not provided proof that a "human being" does not exist it the early stages of human development. I am more apt to error on the side of life until proven otherwise. But by your own statement, "early stages of human development" you seem to be conceeding that it is indeed a human being in development are you not?

Originally Posted by Giftedone

The fact that the zygote is part of a process that might in the creation of a human is not valid proof that it is a human being.

You have to conceed also, that every human being was at one time a zygote. Is that not proof?

Originally Posted by Giftedone

You are correct that the zygote is not part of a multicellular human .. nor will it ever be or its offspring until the embryoblast (cells that form the human) starts to form.

The key word here is "until". Zygotes do not have offspring, but do divide until it has formed the embryoblast.

The question here is, "when does life begin?", not when does that life become human or a person. If it survives, it will be a human being and a person.

Originally Posted by Giftedone

Just take this comment back ..

Why? I'm pretty sure that a skin cell and a zygote have nothing in common.

**Cady** · Feb 26 2012, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by PatriotNews

I don't understand what any of this has to do with when life begins. Seems like we are shifting the discussion to morality of cloning.

No, YOU are desperately trying ignore what this is about. It is about your statement here:

Originally Posted by PatriotNews

No skin cell has ever grown into a human.

which was proven false by this:

Mature Human Embryos Created From Adult Skin Cells

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 18, 2008

Scientists at a California company reported yesterday that they had created the first mature cloned human embryos from single skin cells taken from adults...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011700324.html

using YOUR definition of a human. NOW do you get it?

**PatriotNews** · Feb 26 2012, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Cady

No, YOU are desperately trying ignore what this is about. It is about your statement here:

which was proven false by this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011700324.html

using YOUR definition of a human. NOW do you get it?

No skin cell has ever grown into a human. Some lab conducted a science experiment which involved the implantation of a skin cell into a donated human egg. It didn't just become an embryo.

**Cady** · Feb 26 2012, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by PatriotNews

No skin cell has ever grown into a human. Some lab conducted a science experiment which involved the implantation of a skin cell into a donated human egg. It didn't just become an embryo.

It didn't just become an embryo? It didn't grow into an embryo? Then what? After the skin cell was implanted into the human egg, how did the embryo come about?

**PatriotNews** · Feb 26 2012, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Cady

It didn't just become an embryo? It didn't grow into an embryo? Then what? After the skin cell was implanted into the human egg, how did the embryo come about?

No, it didn't just become an embryo. A skin cell is a skin cell is a skin cell. It does not compare to a zygote. You are talking about a cloning experiment. That has nothing to do with the comparison you made between a skin cell and a zygote. If you insist upon trying to derail this thread by bringing up cloning, I am not going to respond to that line of reasoning again.

**Cady** · Feb 26 2012, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by PatriotNews

No, it didn't just become an embryo. A skin cell is a skin cell is a skin cell. It does not compare to a zygote. You are talking about a cloning experiment. That has nothing to do with the comparison you made between a skin cell and a zygote. If you insist upon trying to derail this thread by bringing up cloning, I am not going to respond to that line of reasoning again.

Here is the title from Science Daily:

Cloned Human Embryo Created From Skin Cells
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0118092439.htm

These are living human embryos that did not begin at conception.

Now go hide your head in the sand.

**Giftedone** · Feb 27 2012, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by PatriotNews

I don't understand what any of this has to do with when life begins. Seems like we are shifting the discussion to morality of cloning.

Life does not begin at conception .. not sure why this is so hard to grasp but animate does not come from inanimate.

My position is that life begins at conception.
My statement is no more a logical fallacy than yours as you have not provided proof that a "human being" does not exist it the early stages of human development. I am more apt to error on the side of life until proven otherwise. But by your own statement, "early stages of human development" you seem to be conceeding that it is indeed a human being in development are you not?

I am not the one claiming that a human being exists .. I am claiming that you have no proof that it does.

You can believe what you wish of course, but if we are talking about making a law on the basis of that belief one needs to support it.

You have to conceed also, that every human being was at one time a zygote. Is that not proof?

I conceded that the zygote is part of the creation process of a human.

A brick and morter is part of the creation process of a building .. does that make a brick a building ? Does this mean that every building was once a brick ?.. absurd.

The key word here is "until". Zygotes do not have offspring, but do divide until it has formed the embryoblast.

Huh ? Of course the zygote has offspring. That is why the two offspring of the parent zygote are called "daughter cells".

The question here is, "when does life begin?", not when does that life become human or a person. If it survives, it will be a human being and a person.

Life is a continuum ..and we do not know where it began or how yet.

Why? I'm pretty sure that a skin cell and a zygote have nothing in common

They are both single celled eukaryotes.
They both contain one complete strand of human DNA
They both reproduce asexually .. as opposed to sexually like a human.

Bottom line is that a zygote and a skin cell have much more in common than a zygote and a Human.