if somehow abortions are outlawed due to unborn's right to life, what would come of a mother who say, falls down and miscarries? would it be involuntary manslaughter?

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Maybe we could be reasonable? I don't think every accidental death is followed by manslaughter charges. Drunk drivers etc yeah, but others aren't.

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charges, i think so, but probably are let off the hook in court.

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Only if she met the definition of involuntary manslaughter, ie she was criminally negligent (grossly irresponsible). Not all falls would neet this criterion.

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http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847

i was kinda reaching with that one, but you guys get my point.

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Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speak as (I think) the only woman in this thread and the only one who has had an abortion. Two, in fact. And don't think it's easy for me to say that to a bunch of strangers over the internet. Especially now that I'm 14 weeks pregnant.

Life does not begin at conception. I know this because I have studied in minute detail everything that has happened to my body over the last 14 weeks and this is true. Did you know that your gestational stage is actually taken from one to two weeks before you even conceive? So in actual fact, I conceived 13 weeks ago yesterday, but I am 14 weeks pregnant.

Did you know that it isn't even until 2 weeks after you conceive that the cells actually implant in your uterus? So before that time, you are technically not even pregnant. And yet you are 4 weeks pregnant (actually 2 weeks pregnant, technically). Did you know that our gestation is 40 weeks? Which is nine and a half months? Which is two weeks longer than we think? That's because for the first two - four weeks you're not actually pregnant - technically.

Did you know that at 5 weeks pregnant there is nothing but a yolk sac? No fetal pole, even? Or anything that even vaguely represents life? Just a collection of cells? Did you know that at 5 weeks' gestation your cells are the size of a grain of sand? Did you know that one third of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion before 12 weeks?

To abort a collection of cells at or before 5 weeks is not murder. It's a curette.

BUT, after that, well, it's a different story. It's simply astonishing what the body can achieve in a mere 8 weeks. And explains why the first trimester of pregnancy is so incredibly taxing on your body, and why you're so exhausted. At six weeks there is a heartbeat. At seven weeks there is a noticeable head, and many of the organs have started to form. At eight weeks there are limbs sprouting and a spine taking shape. At nine weeks we have nearly all of our major organs intact. At ten weeks there are arms and legs and the baby is moving. (I nearly died when I saw this). It is just over an inch long. Five weeks later and it's producing urine, has fingers and toes, has all of its eggs if it's female, and it's reproductive capabilities if it's male. You can see all the verterbrae of it's spine (which I did last week - astonishing). It moves around in there like it's swimming a marathon race. It's making breathing movements. It's three times as big as it was two weeks ago. If I have an ultrasound next week, I might see it sucking it's thumb. I can feel it's movements like little tiny bubbles.

So as far as I am concerned, there's a baby in there after 5 weeks, even if it isn't viable. And I have, like I said, had two abortions. One at 5 weeks, one at 8. Both were for medical reasons, both were to prioritise my health and safety (and I'm not going into it here). The day after my second abortion I woke up and found that the doctor who had performed it had been arrested, and it was the first thing I saw when I walked into the kitchen and laid eyes on the front page of the newspaper. It did not help my emotional state, and I ended up protesting outside his courtroom during his case - for which he was acquitted. But I can no longer agree with abortion at any time during the second trimester - at ANY time - and I find it very difficult to reconcile having an abortion after 5 weeks' gestation.

However, that does not negate that it is nobody's right to determine but the mother and the father. Regardless of all the miraculous things happening, the foetus has no consciousness, and no memory, and no ability to survive on its own. In these situations, I cannot do anything other than reasonably side with the person already living, breathing, thinking and feeling. We accept self-defence as a mitigating factor for murder. Why is it so difficult to accept the mother's rights before her unborn and unviable child? They're not the same thing - but when people are going on about rights I don't understand why the rights of the mother are so unimportant.

Suffice it to say, an abortion at any time after 5 weeks would be a terrible, conscience-rending decision, and experience. And I know this - and I can only be thankful that I didn't know then what I know now. And that I can experience this wonderful time of my life knowing that my child will be safe, well-looked after, welcome, loved and cherished. But it isn't like that for everyone. And nobody has the right to judge or make decisions on this but the woman involved - nobody.

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i honestly, really dislike abortion, personally; i would never recommend for anyone to get one unless they were at risk themselves. on the other hand, i recognize that its not my position to make that call. for one thing, im not a woman, for another, im not every unborn baby's dad (hope not, lol). i agree with limiting how late abortions can be carried out, which would vary on a case-by-case basis.

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Well, that and murder.


So why cant the woman abort her 8 month fetus for the same reason? What about a 2 day old newborn? Exactly at what point should it no longer be the mothers option to kill the child?

I disagree btw. I have a right to judge the woman who kills her child in the same way that I have the right to judge NAMBLA for molesting children, or the Nazis for stuffing jews into ovens. If you are taking an innocent life for what amounts to convenience, you deserve to be judge IMO.

Tell me, would you feel the same way about Nazis claiming that killing Jews was regrettable but necessary? If a concentration camp overseer described his duties as "a terrible, conscience-rending decision, and experience", would that elicit sympathy from you?

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because the 8 month old fetus could just as easily be removed from the mother's belly and be kept alive. that isnt an option early in the pregnancy.

if it was somehow possible to keep the unborn alive even if removed from the mother in the first trimester, would you agree with that? have the developing fetus be kept alive at the expense of others? if that were possible with modern medicine, would you prefer that alternative?

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Viability is the issue here, and pretty much always has been in the abortion debate.

Of course you have that right. You can do what you like. Nobody is saying you don't have a right to judge - you just don't have a right to decide. And if you think that the only reason women have abortions is out of convenience, you're either ignorant, stupid, or both. You don't strike me as either, so there must be an inherent refusal to learn anything more about it in there somewhere.

I really can't even believe that you would compare the two. It would make more sense for you to just say straight out `I don't agree with abortion' and leave it at that. Because clearly it's that simple and cut-and-dried for you, and you're entitled to your opinion. It doesn't mean that your opinion has any merit, but still, you're entitled to it. If you're going to protest something, you'd think you'd be interested in learning all the facts before you just go making broad generalisations and strawmans, but some people just aren't interested in going that deep.

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We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins