I'm really on the fence on this one. Before I was pregnant, I would have said no. Now that I am pregnant and I know all the amazing things that happen from that time onwards, I'm really torn. I'm going to have to give it a lot of thought. More than I ever have before, to be honest.

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We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

The one I saw could speak, had a name, ect. She just didnt have control of the body except for one arm.


In this context she could be considered parasitic, since she had little or no control over the body she shared with her twin.



So as long as she is unconscious, it is ok to kill here. Is that your position?


How long should someone be in a coma before we consider them non-responsive and therefore dead? Is five minutes enough time? If not, why?

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"So as long as she is unconscious, it is ok to kill here. Is that your position?"

sure, if theyre not likely to come to again. its not the same with the unborn because they were never conscious to begin with, not in early pregnancy.

"How long should someone be in a coma before we consider them non-responsive and therefore dead?"

well, if theyre still alive theyre not dead, obviously. the length of time the person is kept alive, in my opinion, should depend on the will of those whose care the individual is under. if the person in the coma is solely responsible for their own fate, then if theyre unable to represent themselves theyre at the mercy of the hospital/laws, i suppose.

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Abortion is a non-issue. Arguing about abortion is like standing in a gutter, waving a sign on Main Street. On the other side of the street is a gaggle of clowns standing in the gutter, waving signs arguing about the right to bear arms. Meanwhile, there’s a bunch of thieves right behind us on the sidewalk walking into our stores, robbing us blind.

Whhaaaaaattttt??????

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Blade: "more educated and literate people than Justabubba"

Justabubba: "that would include everyone"

http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847

__________________
Sharon Marie Tate: January 24 1943 - 9 August 1969
Forever Remembered

So you believe the fetus is an object, not a person.

What exactly changes between the time it is still attached and the time it takes it's first breath?



So you would have no problem with people experimenting on a 9 month fetus, so long as it never actually takes a breath.



By those criteria, human beings do not deserve rights until they can at least walk.



Um...why?

You just said the fetus is just an object. If that is true, why would the mother think twice about removing it? Explain why the decision is hard.


No offense, but I don't recognize you as the official spokeman for all women. You have no way of knowing their motives.



Pedophiles are making the exact same argument in defense of pedophilia.

Many white supremacists believed (and some still believe today) that black people are not really people, so killing them shouldn't count as murder. Thats why they let people off (via jury nullification) who lynched blacks.

Explain why they are wrong, but you are right.



If you are secure in your beliefs, why do you care if they picket? You dont feel guilt, right?



Hyperbole. No one is making the argument that women should be forced to take a child to term if it will kill them in the process. The vast majority of abortions are not because the woman's life is at risk.



Why does it matter to you if the fetus is just an object anyway? I assume you are in favor of allowing abortion even if the child is perfectly healthy, right?



I don't care. The reasons are irrelevant. Because IMO, the fetus is not an object owned by the mother. So the "why" never even enters into it for me.

I would not be in favor of allowing a mother to kill a 2 week old infant either, and for the same reasons.


What do they have to feel bad about?

Peta tries to make me feel guilty about eating meat all the time. It has zero effect on me. Want to guess why?



What does that have to do with anything. "Murder is a choice but so is robbery". BFD.


Heaven forbid you should let the child decide eh?



By your logic all children should be aborted.



There is actually a waiting list in the US for infant children to be adopted. So that argument is a little empty.

You can have whatever opinion you want, but your opinions should at least be consistent.

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You should grasp that the "legality" is and has been shaky - based only on one of the worst ill-reasoned decisions ever of the USSC, and there isn't any "technical" determination.

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IMO, whether the fetus may be viable is irrelevent, as it is still dependant on the mother. Until the fetus becomes independant, it should not be given human rights.

The weakest of all pro-abortion arguments. Using your logic, actual babies and infants should not be given human rights, since they too are still dependent on their mother.
Feminazi theology, with no basis at all in ethical reasoning.

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Women don't just decide to have an abortion, there is more to it than that. Abortion is the hardest decision a woman will ever have to make, whether she is six weeks pregnant, or six months pregnant.

Not relevent.

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No woman falls pregnant then deliberately waits until she is halfway through term before aborting. There are many, many reasons why women abort, and although we may disagree with those reasons, we have no right to interfere with that womans decision.

You have yet to give reasons why, and your phraseology "woman falls pregnant" follows the feminazi propaganda that almost portrays pregnancy as an illness, as in "falling sick". Except in the case of rape and abortion (1% of all abortions) a woman doesn't "fall pregnant" - rather, she engages in sex voluntarily knowing what the possible consequences are.

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We are all entitled to our opinions, we all have the right to our own beliefs on abortion.

However nobody has the right to kill.

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We can support the right to choose, or we can hold the belief that abortion is morally wrong, and murder, but whatever your opinion, we have no right to force that opinion down someones throat.

Society forces behavior down people's throats a million times a day - it's called "the law".

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I am incensed by those people who picket abortion clinics, waving their banners, shouting at these women for making a choice they are legally entitled to make.

In the United States, we have free speech. If you want a country with no free speech and lots of abortions, go to the People's Republic of China.

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Perhaps these women did not want an abortion, but have no choice as to continue with the pregnany would kill them? Perhaps the child has a fetal deformity?

Using that logic, people already alive with such deformities should be killed - that logic was carried out in nazi germany.

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Perhaps the child has already died and the trip to the abortion clinic is to simply remove the dead child?

Nobody is arguing such a case, and what percentage of trips to the abortion mill are for such a reason - 0.000001 %?

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How do you know why women have abortions?

How do you know why people commit murder? Who cares? It's illegal - and should be in the case of almost all abortions.

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Waving banners at them, shouting and insulting women when they likely feel bad enough about their decision.

Most abortion clinic demos have tried to consel and inform women - not shout at them - spare us the feminazi distortions.

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Abortion is no walk in the park, and it irks me that people think that a woman should carry her baby and give it up for adoption, rather than abort it.

It APPALLS many people that people like you view human life as no better than snot on a handkerchief.

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Adoption is a choice, but then, so is abortion, and IMO, I would rather abort my child than give him/her up for adoption - how would I know if my child was happy?

Prople are better dead than unhappy? How many people are temporarily unhappy? Should they commit suicide?

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Keep in mind that there are thousands and thousands of unwanted children out there, all looking for homes - do you think they all find a loving home

?

So they should be killed? Eventually they will be responsible for their own happiness - and almost all will find it. Skip the altruistic garbage - women who have abortions don't do so because they think their adopted child will be unhappy, they do it because of the worst selfishness.

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The more children we put up for adoption, the more adoptive parents we need to adopt them, and we just don't have enough parents to go around.

Nonsense - couples go all over the world now from the US to find children to adopt because there aren't enough here.

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Abortion is sometimes the better option, because it prevents the child from suffering, and it also prevents the mother from constantly wondering how her child is, where they are, etc.

Let's take a poll of unadopted children, and see how many wish they were dead. And we should KILL fetuses so that the mother who gAVE THE CHILD AWAY doesn't have to "worry"?? The longer you speak, the sillier you sound.

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Abortion should stay safe, and legal, because all women have the right to control their bodies, and anything in their bodies, fetus or no fetus.

A "safe abortion" is a contradiction in terms, women controlling just their own bodies is not the issue and nothing but a feminist slogan, not an argument.

__________________
Blade: "more educated and literate people than Justabubba"

Justabubba: "that would include everyone"

http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847

I did not say that. The fetus is in every way a human, but it is not a human being/person. It is not an object.

It becomes dependant from the mother, and can survive without her aid.

I have no problem with abortions in the ninth month of pregnancy, if this is what you are asking.

A newborn child can survive without it's mother, a fetus cannot.

I never mentioned the word 'object' in my previous post.
The decision to have an abortion is a life changing one. The decision to keep a child is also life changing. It is a hard decision, deciding which is the better option, which you would be better equipped to cope with. It is not a decision made overnight, it takes a lot of thought and consideration.

No offence, but you don't know the motives for abortion, eithor.

Black people are human beings/people just like you and me, because they are dependant beings. They have been born, and personhood has been established.
Peodophiles are a different story. Peodophiles do not molest fetuses, the molest children, who are dependant beings.
This is what the pro-choice argument comes down to. Independancy vs Dependancy. A fetus is dependant, a newborn infant is not.

I would not feel guilt in having an abortion, but then, I have never had an abortion, so I do not know how I would feel if I made the choice to have one. But whether or not the woman feels guilt is no reason for her to be insulted and called 'baby killer' when she enters the clinic.
There is simply no excuse for people to picket abortion clinics.

It does not matter whether the womans life is at risk. It matters that the woman is able to make a decision about her life, her body. No woman should ever be forced to gestate against her will, no matter her motive for wanting an abortion.

Yes, I would be. I may not agree with the reasons why some women have abortions, but it is not my place to interfere. It is not my life, nor my body.

The fetus is 'owned' by the mother. It is in her body, therefore she has ownership of it.
It may have it's own body, it's own heartbeat etc, but this is irrelevent. It is a non sentient, dependant being, and for as long as it is inside the mother, she has ultimate control over it.

Killing a two week old infant would be murder. This is different. As I have explained before, a two week old can survive without it's mother. It has taken a breath, and is considered a person. To kill a person is murder.

I don't know. I just know that abortion is not an easy decision to make. I do not know the reasons why women have abortions. Perhaps they have them because they feel they have no choice? Perhaps this makes them feel bad? I don't know, and I don't think anyone could know but the women who have made such a decision.

Meat is not sentient, nor can it respond to pain. Meat is not human, so this is completely different.
For the record, I don't listen to PETA eithor. Soon they will be exposed for the people they really are.

I never said this, I just said that it may be better to abort than to give birth to a child whose future is uncertain.

There are an estimated 1.5 million abortion in the United States per year. Are there 1.5 million people on the waiting list for adoption?

__________________
Sharon Marie Tate: January 24 1943 - 9 August 1969
Forever Remembered

Abortion is legal because the US courts recognised that a woman should have ultimate control over her body.

A newborn is not dependant on their mother, and need never be dependant on their mothers. They survive just fine without them.

So a woman should be punished for having sex? Last time I checked, it was perfectly legal for a woman to engage in intercourse. I see no reason why she should be punished for having done so.

So I have no right to kill the man who is raping me? I have no right to kill the person who is in the process of robbing my home? I have no right to kill the person who is threatening me? I have no right to defend myself?
Is this what you are saying?

And abortion just happens to be legal, doesn't it?

I have no problem with free speech, but when someone abuses, whether verbally or physically, this is no longer free speech. It's a crime.

Some unborn children with fetal deformitites should, IMO, be aborted. What about fetuses with genetic conditions which will mean they die shortly after birth? What about fetuses with severe facial deformities?

It does not matter the reasons why a woman has a abortion. It has nothing to do with you.

Abortion is not murder, and hasn't been for years.
So you would have no problem with treating women like sex slaves? This is what you are basically saying - that women should be forced to have a child against their will.