Thread: New law allows doctors to withhold information that may lead to abortions

Originally Posted by Cady

I associate her unwanted pregnancy with abuse.

Asked because I do not know, was she impregnated against her will?

Wouldn't that depend on when life begins? What about Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"?

True, but didn't Man then become a living soul in a living body?


I'm unsure if this was only meant for one man or if this could be applicable to all of us regarding the beginning of life; "Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations"

I think it would have been explicitly condemned and it wasn't.

You were given a keen, discerning mind (evidenced by your arguments), so a question. If you have no faith the question is withdrawn but if you have a faith I ask sincerely, if you can envision Jesus Christ (as the Son of God) in an abortion mill, He would counsel pregnant women to...? As this is your question (if you want it) know that I am not looking for my answer but yours.

And if He had addressed childbirth as a hurtful experience would you then become an advocate for abortion rights?

No, sincerely I cannot, I don't think God caused that transient reminder/experience to promote abortion. Christ raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out spirits, fed the hungry in body and spirit, forgave the repentant sinner. I don't see God as an abortion promoter

Originally Posted by Junkieturtle

It is not, and it is not.

This bill is simply part of a larger movement in Arizona that is declaring war on women's reproductive health choices.

So? When are people going to realize that there is a numerically large amount of people in this country who down to the core of their very beings, see abortion as murder and want to protect the fetus over the wants of the mother?

You may not agree with it, you may not like it. But people who don't support abortion are not stupid backwards inhuman slime!

and it isn't a "war".

Originally Posted by DixNickson

True, but didn't Man then become a living soul in a living body?

So?

I'm unsure if this was only meant for one man or if this could be applicable to all of us regarding the beginning of life; "Jeremiah 1:5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations"

I think you do know this was addressed to one man who was destined to be a prophet.

If you have no faith the question is withdrawn but if you have a faith I ask sincerely, if you can envision Jesus Christ (as the Son of God) in an abortion mill, He would counsel pregnant women to...? As this is your question (if you want it) know that I am not looking for my answer but yours.

Probably each woman's counsel would be different, depending upon her particular needs.

No, sincerely I cannot, I don't think God caused that transient reminder/experience to promote abortion. Christ raised the dead, healed the sick, cast out spirits, fed the hungry in body and spirit, forgave the repentant sinner. I don't see God as an abortion promoter

Refusal to condemn abortion is not promoting abortion.

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

So?

The comment would be germane to the discussion Cady and I were sharing in. Of course you are welcome to join in too. I was simply referencing body and soul.

I think you do know this was addressed to one man who was destined to be a prophet.

Sister is it your belief that God was capable of this but once or just did this one time?

Probably each woman's counsel would be different, depending upon her particular needs.

For instance? Which specific life example and teaching would you cite to support the counsel Christ would share?

Refusal to condemn abortion is not promoting abortion.

To the contrary to know a child hungers but do nothing about it surely promotes and sustains that hunger. To know of injustice and turn a blind eye does nothing save promote injustice. To see inhumanity and not be moved to stop it does nothing but encourage inhumanity.

If we stand for nothing we will fall for anything. I believe Christ said "He who is not with Me is against Me" If this is truth then there is no middle ground, no spectators box. Active participant or not we all serve some Master whether it by conscious choice or by an undenied default. To say nothing, to have no position is to choose a camp.

Grannie have you ever told your grandchildren that if they are not part of the solution then they are part of the problem?

Originally Posted by DixNickson

Sister is it your belief that God was capable of this but once or just did this one time?

Is it your belief that God's capability is limited? Is it your belief that God's words to Jeremiah apply to everyone? Why would one believe random words directed to a specific named ONE apply to all?

For instance? Which specific life example and teaching would you cite to support the counsel Christ would share?

Does Christ's counsel require support? Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume you know WHAT Christ would counsel? Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that what you believe Christ is advising is something everyone must believe?

To the contrary to know a child hungers but do nothing about it surely promotes and sustains that hunger. To know of injustice and turn a blind eye does nothing save promote injustice. To see inhumanity and not be moved to stop it does nothing but encourage inhumanity.

If we stand for nothing we will fall for anything. I believe Christ said "He who is not with Me is against Me" If this is truth then there is no middle ground, no spectators box. Active participant or not we all serve some Master whether it by conscious choice or by an undenied default. To say nothing, to have no position is to choose a camp.

Grannie have you ever told your grandchildren that if they are not part of the solution then they are part of the problem?

In spite of your platitudes, it is still true that refusal to condemn abortion is not promoting it.

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

Is it your belief that God's capability is limited? Is it your belief that God's words to Jeremiah apply to everyone? Why would one believe random words directed to a specific named ONE apply to all?

No.
I believe His words are meant for all of us. Do you believe that God only knew Jeremiah before he was conceived, could you entertain the thought that God could possibly know some others or anyone else before they were formed in their mother's womb?
Could God have revealed something of His power with this account or possibly even about us and the beginning of human life?

Does Christ's counsel require support? Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume you know WHAT Christ would counsel? Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that what you believe Christ is advising is something everyone must believe?

No.

Not if you believe his teachings and life example were meant to show the way we are to conduct our lives and enjoy a relationship with God.

No. What I'm asking you is what would He advise. But I guess you would have to first discern Who you believe Christ is (or isn't) to answer that question.

Grannie you posted "Probably each woman's counsel would be different, depending upon her particular needs." My question asked your thought on what counsel Christ would offer a woman (expectant mother) in an abortion mill. And I did ask you to cite Christ's teachings or life examples to support your answer. Me, personally? I can see two distinct choices in this circumstance. Everybody lives or somebody is gonna get killed. So how do you believe Christ would counsel the woman in this matter?

In spite of your platitudes, it is still true that refusal to condemn abortion is not promoting it.

Your disparaging remark is not lost on this simple and humble soul. But Grannie, c'mon woman, there are no spectators...another Dix Nickson platitude I'll offer is "for evil to flourish all that is needed is for good men (and women) to do nothing"

Originally Posted by DixNickson

No.
I believe His words are meant for all of us. Do you believe that God only knew Jeremiah before he was conceived, could you entertain the thought that God could possibly know some others or anyone else before they were formed in their mother's womb?
Could God have revealed something of His power with this account or possibly even about us and the beginning of human life?




No.

Not if you believe his teachings and life example were meant to show the way we are to conduct our lives and enjoy a relationship with God.

No. What I'm asking you is what would He advise. But I guess you would have to first discern Who you believe Christ is (or isn't) to answer that question.

Grannie you posted "Probably each woman's counsel would be different, depending upon her particular needs." My question asked your thought on what counsel Christ would offer a woman (expectant mother) in an abortion mill. And I did ask you to cite Christ's teachings or life examples to support your answer. Me, personally? I can see two distinct choices in this circumstance. Everybody lives or somebody is gonna get killed. So how do you believe Christ would counsel the woman in this matter?





Your disparaging remark is not lost on this simple and humble soul. But Grannie, c'mon woman, there are no spectators...another Dix Nickson platitude I'll offer is "for evil to flourish all that is needed is for good men (and women) to do nothing"

All this talk about what "Christ would do" or what "God can do" is fun but has no relevance to the real question, which is what should be legal under our secular government. Laws are passed to maintain order in society, and those laws passed for imposing a religious point of view are improper. Abortion does not disrupt order in society in any way. Those opposed to abortion because of religious point of view are limited to attempts to convince women that abortion is "wrong" and unfortunately those attempts fail to convince women to refrain from abortion and only cause guilt in those women who choose abortion.

OKgrannie said,

"Is it your belief that God's capability is limited? Is it your belief that God's words to Jeremiah apply to everyone? Why would one believe random words directed to a specific named ONE apply to all?"

Of course God is not limited…but man is. Nothing is outside Gods power. And yes the words apply to all believers. People of the world can attack us as they did Jeremiah in so many ways…but they can never overtake us. The people who reject God will get what they wished for. Judgment will be theirs.

"Does Christ's counsel require support? Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume you know WHAT Christ would counsel? Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that what you believe Christ is advising is something everyone must believe?"

i know exactly what I am to believe.I know what is important….there is no question…none.

Christ said……"I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE……..NO ONE…..cometh to the FAther except through ME."

HE LEFT NO STONE UNTURNED AS FAR AS MEANING OF THIS VERSE. There are not several ways to the Father……ONLY ONE. Not "A" way….but "THE" WAY,TRUTH,LIFE.

A child can understand this verse….it is crystal clear. You either accept Christ or reject Him and die in your sin.

These Words came out of Christs own mouth.

"In spite of your platitudes, it is still true that refusal to condemn abortion is not promoting it."

Refusal to condment abortion is support…and you support killing the unborn.

Originally Posted by OKgrannie

All this talk about what "Christ would do" or what "God can do" is fun but has no relevance to the real question, which is what should be legal under our secular government. Laws are passed to maintain order in society, and those laws passed for imposing a religious point of view are improper. Abortion does not disrupt order in society in any way. Those opposed to abortion because of religious point of view are limited to attempts to convince women that abortion is "wrong" and unfortunately those attempts fail to convince women to refrain from abortion and only cause guilt in those women who choose abortion.

And under anything secular…a case could be made for just about anything.

What we see here in this discussion …two world views as different as night and day. One stands on life and goodness, compassion, respect and life, and the other darkness, hopelessness and death. I think you know which one you represent grannie. You can not begin to understand our pro-life stance…because of your lack of belief in the God that created you. No discussion will ever change anything….only the Holy Spirit and sometimes hearts are just hardened to the Word….from all appearances…that is what is true here.

I usually debate abortion without even mentioning God…it can be done. I work with a few people who reject God and even they see the horrors of what abortion does. Science is on the side of life….in every way…it is man who takes life into his own hands by determining who lives and who dies. I reject your idea of what society is and should be….I can only imagine what else in your world you condone.

Originally Posted by DixNickson

No.
I believe His words are meant for all of us. Do you believe that God only knew Jeremiah before he was conceived, could you entertain the thought that God could possibly know some others or anyone else before they were formed in their mother's womb?
Could God have revealed something of His power with this account or possibly even about us and the beginning of human life?




No.

Not if you believe his teachings and life example were meant to show the way we are to conduct our lives and enjoy a relationship with God.

No. What I'm asking you is what would He advise. But I guess you would have to first discern Who you believe Christ is (or isn't) to answer that question.

Grannie you posted "Probably each woman's counsel would be different, depending upon her particular needs." My question asked your thought on what counsel Christ would offer a woman (expectant mother) in an abortion mill. And I did ask you to cite Christ's teachings or life examples to support your answer. Me, personally? I can see two distinct choices in this circumstance. Everybody lives or somebody is gonna get killed. So how do you believe Christ would counsel the woman in this matter?





Your disparaging remark is not lost on this simple and humble soul. But Grannie, c'mon woman, there are no spectators...another Dix Nickson platitude I'll offer is "for evil to flourish all that is needed is for good men (and women) to do nothing"

Jesus overturned the money tables in the temple…he showed emotion and stood his ground with those he found who were sinning. If Jesus were at an abortion mill I can only imagine what He would do. I do know this…He would tell everywoman there to go and sin no more.

And in the end I know because scripture tells me…that all will be judged by every word and every one of their actions. God is fair…but the unrighteous, the unbeliever will die in his sin if he does not have Christ. So says the Lord.