So the father must pay for the child after the fact with child support. But he gets no say about it before its born.

[/quote]I said I don't believe in the death penalty, no matter what. Fetus's are not people. My beliefs on the DP do not apply to fetus's. Death row inmates are not using another persons body to sustain life, a fetus is.[/quote]
actually... i think you'll find hannibal lector DID in fact, sustain himself with other peoples bodies. I would say that these "people" are leeches on society that in fact use multiple persons to sustain them. (victims/victims families/taxpayers). oh and it has a heartbeat, and a brain, and if you weren't a fairly obvious atheist, i'd say it has a soul. so... its murder, you lose!


[/quote]I've been debating this subject for years, and I have never been outmaneuvered, especially not by a teenager.[/quote]
wow! touuchy!... but you really have been, your just to blinded by classic liberal theorem and maybe touch of sun stroke combined with pyruvate carboxlayse defiency.

At least labor is a natural means of ousting a baby, one that has had 6 billion years of evolution to shape, and the entire existence of medical science to perfect.

Various Abortion surgeries have been shown to cause blood clots, others leave a woman incapacitated for weeks. Not to mention the psychological problems resulting from regret and/or hormone imbalances. You don't exactly walk off an abortion. Keep trying to tell us that though!

If the baby is removed and can live on its own, tough. You can't kill a child because you don't want it anymore (yet). Besides, you act like Abortion isn't surgery.

With medical science where it is today, the chance of the death of a healthy mother delivering a healthy baby in a hospital is negligible. I guess if you can't get to a hospital the risks go up, and that's where the "convenience" of an abortion lies.


B L Zeebub, in response to me saying that abortion is a surgery with sometimes nasty side-effects suggested infanticide.

You don't have sex, You make love. You don't die, You leave to be with the Lord. You aren't a janitor, You are a sanitation engineer. It's not a used car, It's a pre-owned car. You didn't fail, You are being held back.

No, but you can't complain about alternatives to an abortion because they have side-effects. Abortion has risks too.



But abortion is killing the child regardless of its ability to live on its own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makedde Abortion cannot mean taking the baby out of the mother and letting it fend for itself, for one, the child will likely need medical intervention

So it'd be easier to just kill someone than give them medical care? Okay, but I vote you have to be the one to explain that to diabetics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makedde and two, abortion means to terminate a pregnancy. It does not not mean removing the child and allowing it to live.

That's why its murder. Its not taking a child out of its mother, Its killing the child and then taking it out of its mother. There's no way to know if it was capable of living on its own, in which case, under your definition, it has the right to life.

Then why are you here?

I'm American, therefore I'm okay with the death penalty? Your logic is flawless. Even if I did support it, at least those killed in the death penalty killed people, you are supporting the means of death for innocent babies.

I never realized faith had nothing to do with intelligence...

Okay yoko I will make my feelings clear, religion is a load of bollocks, to me your pathetic responses me!

I am in complete agreement with the current laws on abortion in the UK and US, and the rights of women to have freedom of choice!

Why am I here? because I like having fun!

The father has a say, but he does not make the final decision. That is left to the woman.

Just because something has a heartbeat, does not mean it is alive. Just because something has a brain, doesn't mean it is alive.

HL did not use other peoples bodily nutrients to sustain his life. HL was not a fetus.

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Originally Posted by Inferno You just don't relate to my sense of humor. How about this. Gosh darn funny man living in a whale. doncha know that gawd could do that I betcha he could. wink wink.

So...then he gets no say. lets face it. ultimeatly HIS opinion doesn't count. look, i'd agree its 100% the womans choice IF the man didnt have to pay 1/3 of his annual income to the child/mother.


[/quote]Just because something has a heartbeat, does not mean it is alive. Just because something has a brain, doesn't mean it is alive.][/quote]
Are you f-ckin serious!? thats the meaning of the word!
[/quote]HL did not use other peoples bodily nutrients to sustain his life. HL was not a fetus.[/quote]
HE ATE PEOPLE!!! he did use other peoples bodily nutrients to sustain his life, he just killed them first. (babies don't kill their mothers) Look, heres what it boils down to; if you're to much of a F-ckin' retard to use contraception, you don't get a say in anything...cause you are S-T-U-P-I-D!!!

Then how do you determine it is alive?


By that logic, everyone has a say in everything.

A woman that is raped has a "say" in whether or not she will be raped. It's just that the rapist makes the final decision. Right?

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It's okay to kill that woman too, because she won't remember it when she's dead. Therefore she was never really alive or a person.

Well, if we are thinking of someone of life support, we'd go by brain activity. Many people are kept alive artificially. Their hearts may not beat on their own, but their brain is still active.
A fetus may have brain waves, so I will say that technically, it is alive. If it wasn't alive, it couldn't be born alive. Having said that, because the fetus is inside the womans body, using her body to survive, and because it cannot survive outside the womb, the woman has the authority to abort.
Brain waves may matter to some people, and they are important, but only for those people who have actually been born. The fact that a fetus may have brain waves simply shows it's brain is developing, which is what we'd expect. It doesn't mean the fetus can live on it's own, or breath on it's own, nor does it mean the fetus is aware of it's surroundings, or whether it can feel pain. Brain waves don't determine this, they simply show whether a brain is active.

A woman has no choice in whether she is raped or not. You know that as well as I do. Please don't twist my words to mean something I did not intend.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno You just don't relate to my sense of humor. How about this. Gosh darn funny man living in a whale. doncha know that gawd could do that I betcha he could. wink wink.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno You just don't relate to my sense of humor. How about this. Gosh darn funny man living in a whale. doncha know that gawd could do that I betcha he could. wink wink.

That doesn't make childbirth safer than abortion.

I have never denied that some women experience feelings of regret and remorse after an abortion.
So abortion can sometimes cause blood clots? Childbirth can sometimes cause hemorrage. Pregnancy can cause pre eclampsia, which can be deadly if not treated straight away.
Pregnancy and childbirth aren't exactly things you walk off, eithor.

I never said abortion isn't surgery. It is one of the most commonly performed surgeries in the world today, no more dangerous than having your appendix out. Or a tooth pulled.

You would be wrong. There are many, many things that can go wrong during pregnancy, or during labor. This isn't negligence.

Not so many risks as childbirth, though.

Whether it can live on it's own is not the point. Whether you like it or not, the woman has the authority to choose. Aborting a fetus that could survive on it's own would be a late term abortion. Late term abortions are very rare. Pro lifers would have us believe they occur everyday, and they don't. 95% of abortions are performed in the first twelve weeks, the others, late term abortions, are usually performed due to a risk to the mother, or fetal defect.

Oh please. You are putting words in my mouth. Lets stick to what I have said, okay?

I am always amused by pro lifers who support the death penalty.
So I take it a fetus is worth a lot more than an actual 'born' person?
Here's a story for you: A woman is pregnant, she wants to abort, but you change her mind, telling her she'd be killing her baby if she did, and that child has a right to life. She has the baby, and suddenly you don't care about that child anymore. Why should you? It's been born, and that is all that matters. You don't need to trouble yourself with that child anymore. Time passes, the child grows up and commits murder. Suddenly, you are wanting to see that person executed for their crimes.

See the point here? Pro lifers only care about the fetus when it is inside the mother. Once it is born, they don't give a crap.

If you believe in the right to life, you believe in the right to ALL life. No matter if someone has commited a crime. All life is valuble, and the location of that fetus/person should not be an issue.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferno You just don't relate to my sense of humor. How about this. Gosh darn funny man living in a whale. doncha know that gawd could do that I betcha he could. wink wink.