Thread: Yeah...you keep on trying to convince us...

Originally Posted by churchmouse

And the author of that article…is a heretic….plain and simple…just another unbeliever who accepts sin as Gods standard.

Here are his credentials:

Biography
A prize-winning historian and Emmy Award nominee, Randall Balmer is professor of American religious history at Barnard College, Columbia University, and formerly a visiting professor at Yale Divinity School. He has lectured at the Chautauqua Institution, the Commonwealth Club of California and the Smithsonian Associates and to audiences around the country. He has been a visiting professor at Dartmouth College and at Rutgers, Yale, Drew, Northwestern, and Princeton universities. He is adjunct professor of church history at Union Theological Seminary, and he has also been a visiting professor in the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism.

Mr. Balmer, who earned the Ph.D. from Princeton University in 1985, has published widely both in academic and scholarly journals and in the popular press. He is an editor for Christianity Today, and his commentaries on religion in America, distributed by the New York Times Syndicate, have appeared in newspapers across the country. He has published opinion pieces in the Des Moines Register, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, the San Diego Times-Union, the Dallas Morning News, Slate, the Philadelphia Inquirer, New York Newsday, the Albany Times-Union, the Nation and the New York Times. His first book, "A Perfect Babel of Confusion: Dutch Religion and English Culture in the Middle Colonies," won several awards, and his second book, "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory: A Journey into the Evangelical Subculture in America," now in its fourth edition, was made into a three-part documentary for PBS. Mr. Balmer was nominated for an Emmy for his script-writing and for hosting that series.

His second documentary, "Crusade: The Life of Billy Graham," was aired on PBS and also appeared in A&E's Biography series. "'In the Beginning': The Creationist Controversy," a two-part documentary on the creation-evolution debate, was first broadcast over PBS in May 1995 and then recut and broadcast in fall 2001.

The author of a dozen books, Mr. Balmer has co-written a history of American Presbyterians, a book on mainline Protestantism, and another book, "Protestantism in America," with Lauren F. Winner. Other books include "Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism," published by Baylor University Press, and "Religion in Twentieth Century America," part of the Religion in American Life series, published by Oxford University Press. A spiritual memoir, "Growing Pains: Learning to Love My Father's Faith," published by Brazos Press in 2001, was named "book of the year" (spirituality) by Christianity Today. More recently, "God in the White House: How Faith Shaped the Presidency from John F. Kennedy to George W. Bush," was released by HarperOne in January 2008, and "The Making of Evangelicalism: From Revivalism to Politics and Beyond" was published by Baylor University Press in 2010.

How do they compare with yours?

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Why?


That isnt a justification.


Actually I have an argument. I have stated it already but I cna repeat it. You lifers have no argument.

You've got no argument - your only argument is something along the lines of "because fetuses show no interest in being alive", so yeah you're just begging the question - you have no argument for why "showing interest" in being alive is a valid reason not to have a right to life.

Originally Posted by SpaceCricket79

You've got no argument - your only argument is something along the lines of "because fetuses show no interest in being alive", so yeah you're just begging the question - you have no argument for why "showing interest" in being alive is a valid reason not to have a right to life.

Yes, I do have an argument, I have already made it a thousand times. Go to the debate section, click the abortion thread and read an explanation of it there. LOL You're such a presumptive fool.

One thing you learn quite quickly when becoming a parent is that selfishness tends to take a back seat in your priorities. You now have a living, breathing human being that you are completely in charge of and to take care of in order for the baby to live. You have to sacrifice a lot when becoming a parent, there is no doubt about that. Call it what you will, but abortion is a selfish act. Ultimately, you are deciding to kill what will become a living human being because it wasn't planned. I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm on a high horse and tell people what they should or shouldn't do. The fact is, abortion is legal and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. People have to live with the decisions they make and their decision is not mine to make for them. Obviously the situations vary, potential father being involved, one night stand, potential father wants/doesn't want the baby, age, all of that weighs into the decision. However, I can guarantee most women that go on to have children later in life that have had a previous abortion are going to regret it. It will hang over their head forever. I'm a man, and I agree, men have less sway in the decision, because ultimately it is the woman's decision to make. A man that has no children and doesn't plan on having children (i.e. Megadethfan) has almost no sway whatsoever, especially when trying to argue against a woman that has had a previous abortion. To me, it's a clear cut situation when you look just at the end result, either there is a living baby or there is no baby. This baby doesn't just disappear, its a decision.

Originally Posted by Drago

One thing you learn quite quickly when becoming a parent is that selfishness tends to take a back seat in your priorities. You now have a living, breathing human being that you are completely in charge of and to take care of in order for the baby to live. You have to sacrifice a lot when becoming a parent, there is no doubt about that. Call it what you will, but abortion is a selfish act. Ultimately, you are deciding to kill what will become a living human being because it wasn't planned.

Ok... so what? The whole act of becoming a parent is considered by some, to which I would say is often the case, is an entirely selfish act. You dont have a kid to "give them the joys of life" - most people have children because THEY want to raise children for the joy THEY (and their kid, of course) will experience. No, parenting is hardly an altruistic arrangement, more like a mutualist one. The western tradition shows it has been historically egoistic, not just selfish. So I dont see the validity of your point here.

Originally Posted by Drago

I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm on a high horse and tell people what they should or shouldn't do. The fact is, abortion is legal and I don't think that is going to change anytime soon. People have to live with the decisions they make and their decision is not mine to make for them. Obviously the situations vary, potential father being involved, one night stand, potential father wants/doesn't want the baby, age, all of that weighs into the decision. However, I can guarantee most women that go on to have children later in life that have had a previous abortion are going to regret it. It will hang over their head forever.

Nonsense. Unless you can read minds, and have read all the minds of woman who have had abortions (not to mention then turned around and trumped all studies and polling) this point about "guaranteeing" guilt is complete garbage.

Originally Posted by Drago

I'm a man, and I agree, men have less sway in the decision, because ultimately it is the woman's decision to make. A man that has no children and doesn't plan on having children (i.e. Megadethfan)

I must admit, at 20 I do not plan on having children.

Originally Posted by Drago

has almost no sway whatsoever, especially when trying to argue against a woman that has had a previous abortion.

Whether someone like churchmouse has had an abortion or not has ABSOLUTELY NO bearing on the validity of her claims - whether pro-life or pro-choice. The reason why churchmouse wont change her views is because they are religious, and she is too emotionally and psychologically invested in the issue to actually look at it rationally let alone considerately.

Originally Posted by Drago

To me, it's a clear cut situation when you look just at the end result, either there is a living baby or there is no baby. This baby doesn't just disappear, its a decision.

Yes, but again, what is the problem here? Your entire premise is flawed. Do you not realize having an abortion can be as much an altruistic act as a self-interested one (not to mention the fact you never showed why acting self-interestedly is necessarily bad)? Parents might not want to have kids because they cant give them a good life; they feel they cant live up to the requirements, or are not ready, or the social conditions are too poor - war, social repression, persecution, etc etc.

Your post, for all its sincerity, is myopic and ignorant.

First, I didn't say all women that had an abortion, I said most women that had an abortion and go on to have children in the future. The key here being they have children in the future. When you have a child, everything changes. If they don't regret it, well I don't get it then. People try and rationalize everything they can to make themselves accept what has happened. That's a fact of psychology. You can rationalize all you want to make yourself feel better, i.e. it wasn't the right time, I couldn't afford the child, I couldn't provide for the child, etc. The fact of the matter is that decision means there is no child. Again, abortion is legal and I support law. I have no desire to make it illegal. After all it is a choice, and a choice you have to live with for the rest of your life. Better you than me. I do however believe that not a single tax dollar should go to supporting this decision. After all, its all about women's rights, right? Then she has the right to come up with the money all by herself.

Originally Posted by Drago

First, I didn't say all women that had an abortion, I said most women that had an abortion and go on to have children in the future.

Another groundless and opinionated assertion.

Originally Posted by Drago

The key here being they have children in the future. When you have a child, everything changes.

Another subjective opinion.

Originally Posted by Drago

If they don't regret it, well I don't get it then.

That's because you are operating from entirely within your personal perceptions and judgments with little consideration of the person having an abortion.

Originally Posted by Drago

People try and rationalize everything they can to make themselves accept what has happened. That's a fact of psychology. You can rationalize all you want to make yourself feel better, i.e. it wasn't the right time, I couldn't afford the child, I couldn't provide for the child, etc. The fact of the matter is that decision means there is no child.

Yes but there is absolutely NOTHING wrong in having an abortion. Your claim that it is selfish is opinionated nonsense - quite inconsiderate and offensive I might add.

Originally Posted by Drago

Again, abortion is legal and I support law. I have no desire to make it illegal. After all it is a choice, and a choice you have to live with for the rest of your life. Better you than me. I do however believe that not a single tax dollar should go to supporting this decision. After all, its all about women's rights, right? Then she has the right to come up with the money all by herself.

I disagree. I see no problem in someone who has an abortion receiving assistance and merely pay more tax, or repay the government some other way in the future.

Originally Posted by Drago

I do however believe that not a single tax dollar should go to supporting this decision. After all, its all about women's rights, right? Then she has the right to come up with the money all by herself.

Do you not realize that these women who have abortions also pay taxes? So it is also there money too. I love it when people behave like all taxes only come from their own pocket and therefore they get to say what happens to the money. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

And the only taxes that go to abortion are under very specific circumstances anyways under the Hyde amendment. You'd have to be exceptionally cruel to force a woman to endure a pregnancy under these particular circumstances; rape/incest, immediate danger to maternal health or life, or fatal abnormalities in the fetus.

Originally Posted by Drago

However, I can guarantee most women that go on to have children later in life that have had a previous abortion are going to regret it. It will hang over their head forever.

How do you explain the women having abortions when they already have a child? The majority of them do.

Originally Posted by Cady

How do you explain the women having abortions when they already have a child? The majority of them do.

Maybe they like you think abortion is wonderful solution to their problems. I had my abortion before I had my children…does not matter. Abortion is an absolute…it is killing…and that decision can never be overturned. And like other decisions it remains with you forever. One can't take the words that come out of our mouths back….and no woman can take abortion back.