Operations help people, not kill them. So no.

__________________
"Your old road is Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

"There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."

-Bob Dylan, greatest singer/songwriter ever to live.

no, i was simply countering the argument about "unwanted" babies. and no im not advocating increased production of babies.. there are plenty all around the world. thats what people do when they cant get an "american" baby.

They could say that, but the fact is that until some form of abuse is committed by the adopting parents, no human rights have been violated. We have laws against such crimes.

Except for the cases that the mother's life is imminently in danger due to medical reasons; all other reasons given to justify abortion are for some degree of convenience. What other reasons justify it that aren't somehow convenient for mother or father?

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Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

Well, I guess the first one that comes to mind is when there is a pregnancy as a result of rape or sexual abuse, or incest. I understand that these pregnancies aren't necessarily going to endanger the life of the mother (except in the case of incest, perhaps, if there is an abnormality that could compromise the mother's or foetus's health) but it is a lot to expect of a woman who has been abused in such a way as this to then proceed with a pregnancy and then raise a child for the rest of her life.

In these instances the woman hardly was being irresponsible with allowing herself to get pregnant. I understand that a child out of such circumstances is also an innocent victim, and many women in these situations choose to keep the child with that in mind.

BUT sometimes ethical considerations have to run both ways - and the life and mental and emotional well being of the mother must be taken into consideration along with her physical health.

I was raped when I was 16 and I'm telling you now - any reminder of that, particularly a daily one growing inside me - would have probably pushed me over the edge mentally, in which case it would have presented a danger to my life. I tried to kill myself a few years later and didn't succeed - had I been pregnant as a result of that rape and not allowed to abort I may have tried to end my life earlier.

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We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

You are a very brave person, as a Man I would say sorry for what use that is.

I hope that you understand that I don't want to personally criticize you; but after all we are debating the motives of abortion.

Current law has permitted you to take that action, but such an abortion is for the mother's convenience because the 3rd-party-human who's life has been ended, was ended because of the mother's mental well being and the terminated human life was ended without extending any human rights to them.

I have not experienced the trauma that you have, yet I will continue to support the rights I see fit for fellow humans.

On another note, I hope that you have realized that even those circumstances were not a just rationalization of suicide. That's my opinion based on never experiencing such a situation.

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Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness ~Thomas Paine

I agree - and thankfully I was not put in a position to have to make a decision to abort a child or not because of that incident.

My attempted suicide is also not entirely due to that incident. There are other reasons that are not necessary to go into here, but let's just say I have an illness that can make me irrational (well, it could when I was a teenager) and that underlying illness was really the causal factor for that - and other - attempts I made as a young adult.

I never judge people on the issue of suicide, either - I don't think anyone can unless they've been there themselves. It's utterly alien to most people and therefore they cannot understand the feelings and circumstances surrounding any such attempt. But that's for another thread.

I am not pro-abortion in cases of convenience. However I do feel that in a situation such as rape, sexual abuse or incest, the well being of the child can be significantly in question and that each case should be judged individually. If it is too much for the mother to bear and raise a child, then she should have that right to choose.

As I type, my little one is in there happily booting me in the ribs, and I love that feeling more than anything else I can imagine. BUT, if she was the result of a rape or other kind of sexual abuse I'm not sure that I could cope with such a reminder.

Nobody needs to be reminded every day of their life about the trauma and abuse they suffered, and in some cases the rights of the unborn I feel are not as significant as the rights of the born and living.

There aren't many cases where I feel that way, but this is one of them.

__________________
We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

It's funny that a long time lurker of this forum posts his first post in one of the most hot topics of the century.

Ladies and gentleman, what I do not understand about this debate, is why people continue to contend an issue that has been on countless occasions been proven to be completely subjective.

At what point is the fetus considered a human being and hence the doctrine of human rights apply and thus the "right to life"? Completely upto interpretation. Those of a religious mind say at the point of conception. Those of a scientific mind proclaim 5 months or so when the fetus is able to feel and think. Those of a more atheistic approach would suggest after it is born

With there being so many different opinions on such a crucial definition in this argument, how is it possible to proceed?

It seems there is one thing that most of us agree on and that is the welfare of the mother (ie. the confirmed human being) should be greater than that of the fetus (ie. that whose status is contested).

Hence, we need to create blanket laws that will cater to all individuals in society in the most compromising fashion. Since the woman giving birth has certain rights confirmed and the fetus does not, is it not logical then that abortion be legalized? It simply is the less of two evils here.

Some may not be happy, true, then again the rich don't like taxes either.

i believe that the only time abortion should be legalized is when its beyond reasonable doubt. in other words, when there is conciderable proof that a fetus is is not human at an exact point because otherwise we are taking much to great of a risk of being wrong. this isnt like an issue of how long to keave the cake in the oven.. if we are wrong, innocent babies die. thats the bottom line. i dont know about you, but you dont burry a body if youre not sure hes dead just like you shouldnt abort a fetus if youre not sure hes not alive. until we know for sure, abortio should not be practiced.

True story, The wife is pregnant at 47yrs she is told the child has "downs" she has the child, both his parents die young, his brother takes him in, he is married with to teenage daughter, the downs child now a man shows natural urges to the girls.

For his and there safety he is placed in a care home, he forms a friend ship with a "Downs" girl, he then raped her( as she could not give any form of consent)

She is pregnant.