that argument is ridiculous we all need others to survive, does that mean i'm not alive? and what about 2 year olds if there not taken care of they will die too does that make them dead or at least "not alive"? (BTW your either dead or alive, theres no in between) they will die if there not taken care of. and what about the mentally handicap they need help just to swallow does that mean there dead?

yes the mother should take care of the fetus just like she should take care of her child, cuz it is her child![/code]

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Help from others, but not from one specific individual. In this case before birth the fetus can only live off the mother. A two year old can be taken care of by anyone, not just only her biological mother (orphans).

The words "without direct support" are poor word choice on my behalf but it is hard to explain what I mean exactly. Essential and untransferrable support, might be closer to what I mean but then the sentence would become clumsy. I didn't call it dead either, it is alive but only as long as it can live off the mother. A sort of parasitic relationship, not quite but sort of.

I said earlier nurturing is a different thing. A fully formed and completed human, prepared by nature to gain its first self-sufficiency (breathing). At birth babies are forced to breathe for themselves, becoming at least slightly self-sufficienct, more and more so as they grow older. I believe this self-sufficiency is the dividing line. Besides the decision to abort a fetus has to come rather early in the pregnancy to be safely done, much before this line becomes blurry.

About the dead or alive thing, what about the brain dead? I wouldn't call them living. This is not a logical argument of !alive = dead, there is a middle ground.

To reitarate: Once even the slightest degree of self-sufficiency has been attained one becomes truly alive. We are debating the legality of abortion, not the common sense behind it. This is slowly straying off topic. Make it legal.

I completely agree with the above....

But I'm troubled that people are still pulling the old "I believe in a woman's right to use contraception" bull(*)(*)(*)(*). My original post presented the fact that it's not as easy as people would like to believe to obtain contraception, especially if one is a high school student. It's hard to get transportation to clinics like Planned Parenthood, and a lot of people simply have neither the time nor transportation of getting there. I agree that birth control should be promoted more, but people need to stop seeing pregnancy and birth control as just a 'female' thing. I'm so tired of people calling a girl a "moron" just because she got pregnant. It's the same thing with rape. In newspaper headlines, never do you see a title in the active voice. It's always "Gay man is raped," "Young woman is raped," Never "Football player rapes younger classmate," etc. Similary, it's always, "She became pregnant. She was knocked up," etc. It's takes two to tango, folks....birth control needs to be more emphasized amongst men. If our society were to be more responsible and open about discussing and encouraging birth control, the abortion rate would substantially decrease. HOWEVER, like I said before, the people who get abortion are those who TRULY feel they need them. It's not an appealing thing, but it's necessary.

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This really shouldn't be an argument for abortion. It's not easy for me to collect all the tax forms I need to file my return. That doesn't mean tax evasion should be legal.

I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here. I think most people would agree that contraception is something for which both partners need to be responsible. Unfortunately, women are easier targets of ridicule because they're the ones that get pregnant -- it's just a lot easier to see what they've been up to. If a man has 5 kids with 5 different mothers I think he gets ridiculed for not using birth control as well. Isn't he also considered a moron?

With regard to rape headlines, it would be poor journalism to say "Football player rapes younger classmate." That would criminalize someone who has not yet been judged and convicted (e.g. "Kobe Bryant rapes hotel worker"). What you do tend to see is "Football player accused of raping younger classmate" or "Kobe Bryant accused of rape."
Likewise, with regard to pregnancy don't you also hear "He got her pregnant" or "He knocked some girl up?" It depends on whether you are talking about the man or the woman. What would you rather people said?

This really shouldn't be an argument for abortion. It's not easy for me to collect all the tax forms I need to file my return. That doesn't mean tax evasion should be legal.

I'm not sure I see what you're getting at here. I think most people would agree that contraception is something for which both partners need to be responsible. Unfortunately, women are easier targets of ridicule because they're the ones that get pregnant -- it's just a lot easier to see what they've been up to. If a man has 5 kids with 5 different mothers I think he gets ridiculed for not using birth control as well. Isn't he also considered a moron?

With regard to rape headlines, it would be poor journalism to say "Football player rapes younger classmate." That would criminalize someone who has not yet been judged and convicted (e.g. "Kobe Bryant rapes hotel worker"). What you do tend to see is "Football player accused of raping younger classmate" or "Kobe Bryant accused of rape."
Likewise, with regard to pregnancy don't you also hear "He got her pregnant" or "He knocked some girl up?" It depends on whether you are talking about the man or the woman. What would you rather people said?

The above explanation sounds close to the commonly used term "viable fetus," or a fetus that if extracted from the womb prematurely has a good chance of surviving. Do you think late-term abortion should be illegal? If Scott Peterson killed his wife who was 9-months pregnant, do you think he should be convicted of double homicide?

that doesn't make sense either. Why would it make a difference how many people are taking care of this baby? So your riding in a ambulance on the way to your hospital, you can look around and hear what the medics are saying, but your dead because if the medic doesn’t squish the bag to help you breath then you would be no more valuable then a fetus, according to you. Well a fetus is as valuable as anybody.

I think my grandma is 28% dead nope, doesn't make sense, a person is dead when there blood cells separates from the water in there blood, unless someone replaces your blood, then as soon as the artificial blood does not work.

Ya, we shouldn't use common sense, I thought we were talking about "aborted fetus photos" not the legality of abortions so you say. The author most likely wanted to start some discussion on abortion. Besides there is not much to add to the fetus photos part unless you want to add something...

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Yeah, sounds like a match. Besides, most mothers wouldn't want to have abortion that late as it is very risky for the mother too. It's more the early chance which I believe should be legalized.
About the double homicide thing, don't know the case but 9-months? Yeah, give 'em both charges.

well, I used a poor analogy to try to show how pregnancy is always viewed as the FEMALE's fault. But good point about the newspaper headlines, thank you.

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