Thread: The EU's Emissions Trading System Isn't Working

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Hey ziggy stop this flip floping about mate, just in case you haven't heard we are first getting a fixed carbon tax for the first three years and then we are joining the European Union's Emission Trading Scheme, i've never said any different and you're the one wiggly here or there trying to put words in my mouth, now what part of a fixed carbon tax or and Emissions Trading Scheme dont you understand?

So apparently you support the scheme for the first 3 years, got it.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Yeah for the first three years ziggy when its a fixed carbon tax, what happens after the three year period when we join the European Unions Emission Trading Scheme, who will set the laws then mate will it still be Australia?

So you'd prefer a tax, fair enough.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Some how i dont think so, after all we are joining their ETS that is the EU, now do you really want to hand over our sovereignty on how and when we use energy in our nation over to the Europeans?

We are not "joining" their ETS, we do not relinquish any sovereignty and the Europeans have no authority to dictate energy policy to us, and still will not after the carbon price is floated. Do we relinquish sovereignty to trade on the world stock exchange? No.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

I dont see them handing over any part of their sovereignty to us in fact i recon they would tell us where to go if we even dared contemplating such a move.

Why on earth would we expect the EU to hand over "any part of their sovereignty to us"? They shouldn't, no one is suggesting they should, and they aren't.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Are you rich and it just simply doesn't bother you on how high the price is set? cause it bothers me and every other average Australian!

Not any more than I care about the price of the dollar.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

What the fark are you talking about more burden on the EU? WTF have we to do with the EU!

Good question! Shame you didn't think about that before you started this thread.

Point is, an ETS only works as a price incentive when demand for emitting co2 is high. If the demand drops, the price drops. If the demand crashes, the price crashes. Europe has crashed, and the EU ETS has crashed because productivity and co2 emissions have crashed. That's as it should be. The fact that germany is subsidising the green energy sector so much is counter intuitive to the proper functioning of an ETS.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

And BTW take away our mining sector and we are no better of than the irish, or dont you know that!

No one is suggesting to take away mining, no one at all. Even the greens only want to gradually phase out coal mining, not the entire mining industry. Where would they get their prius' and iphones if there was no mining in the world?

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Have you been listening to the news lately and how many industries are in trouble and thinking about closing up shop, have you gone down to your local shops and seen how mnay vacancies ther are?

There are no vacancies at my local shops, frankly they are booming, not that it really matters.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

What we're not in trouble? Why burden the Australian people with a carbon tax?

No, we're not in trouble. Why "burden" the Australian people with any tax?

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Wait a minute dude isn't the whole point of the carbon tax ETS because our emissions of CO2 will destroy the world as we know it, what the fark are you talking about i dont give a rats about carbon credits WHAT ABOUT NOT GOING PAST THE POINT of irevesible damage.

No, the point of it is that dealing with global warming will cost infinitely more than preventing it.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

What about getting corporations to clean up their act FFS!

How? A tax? An emissions cap?

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

But an ETS with lower emissions will have a stock pile of carbon credits which makes fossils fuels more attractive!!!!!

If there is "lower emissions" then you don't -need- a price incentive. It doesn't make fossil fuels "more attractive" than if there was no ETS, it just means that they're more attractive than investing in renewables.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Is this how we are going to get the corporations to clean up there act?

Do you have a suggestion?

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

So in other words as long as we are all commited to finacial slavery through a carbon tax / ETS the idea of fossil fuels being more attractive to investors instead of renewable energy sits well with you?

What nonsense, any tax could be called "financial slavery". Fossil fuels can only be "more attractive" to investors up to a certain point, this can only be true when productivity and emissions are low, so it really doesn't matter as emissions are still capped. Eventually of course fossil fuels will simply run out.

Originally Posted by dumbanddumber

Uner these conditions you are quite happy for more brown coal fired power stations to spring up?

Those conditions don't exist, because, as you keep forgetting or ignoring, emissions are capped. Every time someone invests in fossil fuels, the price goes up.

Ziggy take those political blinkers of mate.