Fair Tax HR 25

#1 (**permalink**) 02-09-2006, 09:55 AM

Sign the Petition

A petition to Support the FairTax Bill to Repeal the Current U.S. Tax Code and Replace it with the FairTax
Whereas, the current U.S. tax code is widely regarded as unfair, complex, wasteful, confusing, and costly;
Whereas, the Internal Revenue Service is acknowledged to be deeply flawed, mismanaged and has victimized many innocent taxpayers;

Whereas, the American people deserve a tax system that:

Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck and retirees to keep their entire pension;

Closes all loopholes;

Frees individuals from ever filing a tax return again;

Abolishes the IRS and ends all audits of individual taxpayers;

Eliminates all hidden federal taxes;

Brings accountability to tax policy;

Lets American-made products compete fairly;

Allows every family to buy the basic necessities tax-free.

#2 (**permalink**) 02-15-2006, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Sign the Petition

DON"T SIGN THE PETITION

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

A petition to Support the FairTax Bill to Repeal the Current U.S. Tax Code and Replace it with the FairTax

No

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Whereas, the current U.S. tax code is widely regarded as unfair, complex, wasteful, confusing, and costly;
Whereas, the Internal Revenue Service is acknowledged to be deeply flawed, mismanaged and has victimized many innocent taxpayers;

So let's replace it with a plan that will potentially have all of these problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck

Yes. But their gross pay check under the FairTax will be very close to their net pay check under the current system. Thus, everything will be a wash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

and retirees to keep their entire pension;

Except for when they have the audicity to actually spend their pension money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Closes all loopholes;

How is this a good thing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Frees individuals from ever filing a tax return again;

But they will have to pay the costs the business has to pay in tax costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Abolishes the IRS and ends all audits of individual taxpayers;

There will be some sort of regulation agency. Whether it is called the IRS or not is irrlevant. There will still be mean tax collectors. They will still hunt people that they think have evaded taxes. Only now they will go after people who operate 'used stores' selling new items. They will go after kids mowing lawns. The underground economy will grow, not shrink.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Eliminates all hidden federal taxes;

d
Except the gasoline tax, which is 18.4%. And tarifs. Plus the tax will be inclided in the list price of every item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Brings accountability to tax policy;

How?

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Lets American-made products compete fairly;

This could posibly be true. But a huge reason American-made products fail is because of Unions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Allows every family to buy the basic necessities tax-free.

And, once again, the rich will pay all the taxes. Great plan!

#3 (**permalink**) 04-09-2006, 09:41 AM

I was a member of CATS - Citizens for an Alternative Tax System - one of the founding entities for this type of tax. I now am vehemently opposed to it's creation. Why?

1 - It's �revenue neutral�. I don't want the government to continue receiving the same amount of revenue. I want the amount to be reduced. However, this point may be irrelevant, being that the amount of internal revenue does not even equal the amount of the service on our national debt. Any revenue needed for budgetary concerns is simply purchased from the Federal Reserve.

2 - I will pay more in taxes overall. Which do you think is a larger amount - 23% of every purchase that you make, or your income tax bracket's percentage of what you 'report' that you earn?

BoogiePeople · #4 (**permalink**) 08-30-2006, 03:24 PM

You people have to really read the bill.

1) Yes, 23% tax sounds like a lot, but are you really that naive to think that all the embedded taxes that go into what you buy aren't already in there? If anything, it's at least 23%. If applied, those embedded taxes all go away, and through the power of free enterprise and competition, retailers will drop their prices approximately 23% (since they're not losing any money because they're no longer paying taxes). Voila! You pay the same amount of money as you would before the fairtax bill.

2) Quit being hung up on "tax brackets." The prebate issue will alleviate all those problems. The "poor" will live virtually tax-free. The "rich" will pay more in taxes, but that's in exchange for all their luxury goods they voluntarily buy. Simply, the less you want to pay in taxes is the less goods you buy above the poverty limit. This gives every individual total control over how much taxes they pay.

Commucrats have this concrete notion that the "Robin Hood" principle is best. Rob from the rich and give to the poor. However, they fail to see that what they're doing is actually punishing those who achieve and rewarding dead beats who do not wish to contribute to society in the same way. That's why jobs are fleeing overseas. To avoid massive tax burdens. Why do you think we have such a welfare problem in this country? Too many folks don't want to get a job if they can have money just handed to them!

Demopublicans are too wimpy to actually make drastic changes in the tax code. So they make a few tweaks here and there, lie to the people that everything is fixed, and then through pork projects, tax hikes, and empty promises to their constituents, eventually the tax codes end up right where they were at the beginning...way too complex, and way too punishing for those who wish to make something of themselves. Then the whole cycle starts over again.

Like I said...read the whole thing, before you bash it. 90% of the people against the FairTax bill are those who've either gotten bad information from someone who has something to lose by it, or they're just plain ignorant and they've totally missed the mark because they haven't read about it.

raytri · #5 (**permalink**) 08-30-2006, 03:40 PM

This issue has been debated before. The threads still exist.

There are five main objections to the idea:

1. It will shift the tax burden. Overall both the rich and the poor will pay less than they do now; the middle-class will pay more. Maybe you think that's a good thing; I don't.

2. The bill contains an error. Even according to Fair Tax itself, the 23% figure is simply there for comparison to income tax. The actual sales tax needed is more like 33%. But the bill sets the tax at 23%. That's not revenue neutral; that's a huge cut in federal revenue. So libertarian, you should be happy.

3. The math is flawed. Fair Tax is claiming we can abolish all other taxes, everyone will pay less tax, and the federal government will get the same amount of money. It's magic! The only way that claim makes sense is if you think there is so much fraud and waste in the current system that you can balance the books simply by eliminating it under the Fair Tax. I don't think that's the case.

4. You have tax evasion now; a Fair Tax will encourage smuggling. There may not be as much of it, but there will be cheating.

5. The rebate plan is a bit of an administrative nightmare. It assumes everyone, especially the poor, lives or receives mail at a fixed address, uses a bank account, etc. There will be fraud; there will be missed payments. As libertarian said, you will still need a huge bureaucracy to combat fraud, and cut and mail the monthly checks.

There are things to be said for the Fair Tax: no loopholes, easy to understand, etc. But it's no panacea.

#6 (**permalink**) 08-30-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

You people have to really read the bill.

1) Yes, 23% tax sounds like a lot, but are you really that naive to think that all the embedded taxes that go into what you buy aren't already in there? If anything, it's at least 23%. If applied, those embedded taxes all go away, and through the power of free enterprise and competition, retailers will drop their prices approximately 23% (since they're not losing any money because they're no longer paying taxes). Voila! You pay the same amount of money as you would before the Fair Tax bill.

Not only am I not naive, I realize that the effect of income taxes on the price of goods is closer to 65% when you tabulate the non-tax costs - accounting, software, legal, lobbying, etc. But to use your example, I am looking at the last tax return that I filed - 1998. That year I had a gross income of $215,000. After deductions my taxable income was $35,000. My tax rate was ~16%, which means that I paid approx. $5600 in Federal Income Tax. That year we spent the entire $209,400 that remained after taxes. With the Fair Tax we would have paid $49, 450 in taxes on that spending. The fun part is that we didn't only spend the entire amount that we made that year...we spent more. How? We charged a lot. With the 'Fair Tax' we would have also paid 23% on those purchases, probably bringing our total Fair Tax burden for that year closer to $53,000. Now...would I rather hand over $5600 to the Federal Government, or $53,000??? Hmmm...

Quote:

2) Quit being hung up on �tax brackets.� The prebate issue will alleviate all those problems. The �poor� will live virtually tax-free. The �rich� will pay more in taxes, but that's in exchange for all their luxury goods they voluntarily buy. Simply, the less you want to pay in taxes is the less goods you buy above the poverty limit. This gives every individual total control over how much taxes they pay.

Not 'hung-up' on tax brackets. You misunderstood my post. Hopefully I cleared it up a bit in the explanation above. Now, I seriously cannot see why the 'poor' should be getting any sort of a free ride. They are the ones who consume the most Government services and money. Any time I hear income redistribution being used as a justification for ANYTHING - especially tax policy, I immediately suspect another motive. At any rate, you totally change your perspective on this in the next paragraph.

Quote:

Commucrats have this concrete notion that the �Robin Hood� principle is best. Rob from the rich and give to the poor.

A common misconception - Robin Hood did not rob from the rich to give to the poor. He took back from the Government what it had previously taken from the poor.

Quote:

However, they fail to see that what they're doing is actually punishing those who achieve and rewarding dead beats who do not wish to contribute to society in the same way. That's why jobs are fleeing overseas. To avoid massive tax burdens. Why do you think we have such a welfare problem in this country? Too many folks don't want to get a job if they can have money just handed to them!

Demopublicans are too wimpy to actually make drastic changes in the tax code. So they make a few tweaks here and there, lie to the people that everything is fixed, and then through pork projects, tax hikes, and empty promises to their constituents, eventually the tax codes end up right where they were at the beginning...way too complex, and way too punishing for those who wish to make something of themselves. Then the whole cycle starts over again.

Like I said...read the whole thing, before you bash it. 90% of the people against the Fair Tax bill are those who've either gotten bad information from someone who has something to lose by it, or they're just plain ignorant and they've totally missed the mark because they haven't read about it.

Not really necessary, since I was part of the group that originally wrote the legislation, and since I haven't spoken of anything that you'd find in it. Also, to the one who claimed that the Fair Tax Abolishes the IRS and ends all audits of individual taxpayers - I agree...you need to read the bill. It has very specific language that permits any litigation for the 'former' income tax until final disposition of such litigation.

I have a better plan.

Steve

4Liberty · #7 (**permalink**) 09-27-2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by libertarian";p=&quot

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Sign the Petition

DON"T SIGN THE PETITION

---Already DID!!!!----

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

A petition to Support the FairTax Bill to Repeal the Current U.S. Tax Code and Replace it with the FairTax

No

---YES!---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Whereas, the current U.S. tax code is widely regarded as unfair, complex, wasteful, confusing, and costly;
Whereas, the Internal Revenue Service is acknowledged to be deeply flawed, mismanaged and has victimized many innocent taxpayers;

So let's replace it with a plan that will potentially have all of these problems.

---No, it won't.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck

Yes. But their gross pay check under the FairTax will be very close to their net pay check under the current system. Thus, everything will be a wash.

---Hogwash! Take away the income tax, take away their FICA and medicare and medicaid taxes, plus give them the company's half of the SS tax paid for them, and the prebate checks, their buying power rises up FAR above what it is now.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

and retirees to keep their entire pension;

Except for when they have the audicity to actually spend their pension money.

---That's the point, buddy, they decide when and how much.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Closes all loopholes;

How is this a good thing?

---How is it not?---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Frees individuals from ever filing a tax return again;

But they will have to pay the costs the business has to pay in tax costs.

---Which will be a whole lot less than what they were paying in corporate taxes PLUS those same costs.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Abolishes the IRS and ends all audits of individual taxpayers;

There will be some sort of regulation agency. Whether it is called the IRS or not is irrlevant. There will still be mean tax collectors. They will still hunt people that they think have evaded taxes. Only now they will go after people who operate 'used stores' selling new items. They will go after kids mowing lawns. The underground economy will grow, not shrink.

---There's a lot fewer entities being taxed, and it means no more individual audits. I rather doubt the Treasury would be able to go below the radar like that, because the bill calls for the abolition of the IRS after 3 years.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Eliminates all hidden federal taxes;

d
Except the gasoline tax, which is 18.4%. And tarifs. Plus the tax will be inclided in the list price of every item.

---It never purported to replace anything but income taxes, buddy. Corporate or individual. These hidden taxes (and the cost to comply with them) come to a lot more than any other. You're a Libertarian (unless your the one from another site with that handle,) you should know this.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Brings accountability to tax policy;

How?

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Lets American-made products compete fairly;

This could posibly be true. But a huge reason American-made products fail is because of Unions.

---An even bigger reason American-made products can't compete is because of federal tax policy. It's designed (intentionally or not) to price American-made products out of foreign markets.---

Quote:

Originally Posted by planecrazy69";p=&quot

Allows every family to buy the basic necessities tax-free.

And, once again, the rich will pay all the taxes. Great plan!

One more time---You get to decide how much you'll pay in taxes by using your descretion in buying.

Plus, all the hidden benefits of this bill are far too many to ignore. If this plan were passed, the US would become the world's largest tax haven---meaning more foreign investment (i.e. money coming in, rather than leaving.) This plan was presented to 1,000 CEO's of European companies, and to a man they all said that, if this was implemented, they would be building their next plant or moving their HQ to the US. Those companies that left? They're back! All those jobs that left? They're back! What does that mean? Basically, you'd have to hide under a rock in a cave in the Rockies to avoid getting a decent-paying job. That's because, with all this influx of businesses INTO the US, there'll be a shortage of labor, and it's price (wages) necessarily goes up.

The "underground economy" would also start paying federal taxes. Yes, those "ladies of the night" and drug pushers would start paying when they buy goods and services, and they won't even notice. I'd have to raise doubts that smuggling would be any worse than it is now. Ask yourself this---why isn't this occuring more widely now? If you can avoid the taxes on the stuff now by paying off smugglers (and risk getting counterfeit and/or dangerous goods, with a real caveat emptor clause), why wouldn't you? Why would smuggling get worse under the FairTax? I have grave doubts about this.

In case you're not aware of it, you're employer collects half your social security contribution and pays it to the government. This is money that most economists say would have went to you, so add another , what, 6.5% to your paycheck. Or, if you're self-employed, you keep it now instead of paying it.

When you consider all these benefits, I just can't see where the present system could compete. This system may have it's flaws, but they're no worse than similar ones in the system now, this FairTax has the fewest flaws of any plan out there. You can't tell me with a straight face that this isn't a HUGE improvement over the current tax code. There is no "perfect solution," until we get in office and repeal taxes to the nth degree; this one just presents the best way for now.

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