TAXES AT THE FOUNDING OF OUR COUNTRY
Truth-Bringer, in making the argument that "taxation is theft" has made the assertion that Jefferson repealed all internal taxes during his presidency and the economy grew accordingly.

Here's what I found with a brief look into tax policy during that period, and at Jefferson himself.

GENERAL PERIOD
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...es/ustax.shtml
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/f...tax.history.us
Leading up to the Revolutionary War period, the colonies supported themselves through five major kinds of taxes: Poll taxes, property taxes, faculty taxes (taxes levied on particular skills or trades), tariffs and excises.

During the war all sorts of taxes were used, including taxes on excess profits and an intangible tax in New Jersey.

Under the Articles of Confederation, the federal government had no tax authority, relying on donations from the states. But the states were sovereign entities that could tax as they pleased.

To pay off Revolutionary War debts, Congress under George Washington taxed whiskey, tobacco, snuff, sugar, carriages, auctions, and legal documents. Tax revolts were put down with armed force (see the Whiskey Rebellion, for example).

As of 1796, seven states levied poll taxes. Twelve taxed livestock. Land was taxed all sorts of ways.

In 1798, under John Adams, Congress passed a direct tax on property.

On the frontier, a general property tax -- on ALL property, not just land -- was often used by local authorities.

Even back then there were many subunits of government -- citizen-organized special districts, school districts, etc. -- that were tax-supported.

JEFFERSON
When Jefferson served in the Virginia House of Delegates (1776-79), among the bills he submitted was one to create a free system of tax-supported elementary education, as well as bills to create a public library system.
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/...s/jeff1370.htm
http://www.americanrevwar.homestead....s/TJEFFERS.HTM

Jefferson didn't repeal all internal taxes; he repealed the direct taxes implemented by his Federalist predecessors. But excise taxes remained.

To pay for the War of 1812, Congress created new excise taxes and issued Treasury notes. In 1817 all internal taxes were in fact repealed, and for 44 years the Government paid its bills through high tariffs and by selling public land.

Throughout this time, however, states and municipalities continued taxing a variety of things to raise revenue.

In short, taxes have been around since at least feudal times, were widespread throughout the entire history of this country, and were accepted and used by the Founding Fathers, including Jefferson.

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Man up.

Wow. You found a government site that favors taxes. I am shocked that a government site would be all for taxes!!!!!!!!!! I can't friggin' believe it!!!!!

Hey, that site says Jefferson was elected in 1802. Is that true?

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

Which you admitted was true:

http://www.politicalforum.com/viewto...5931&start=112

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

As I said in the other thread, this only shows his imperfection. Jefferson said he was against slavery, yet he owned slaves also. It blows my mind that someone so in favor of freedom could have this "duality", but it just shows that he is indeed a flawed human being. Did he make the slave trade from overseas illegal during his Presidency? Yes. Did he free his slaves upon his death? Yes. But he still kept them enslaved during his lifetime, and this was hypocrisy.

In regards to his actions in Congress, that was a lower position. Madison did the same thing. I forgot the bill, but Madison proposed spending in Congress. Then when he became President, he vetoed all spending bills that were alleging unenumerated powers. Therefore, the logical progression that has to be taken is, WHAT WERE THEIR ACTIONS WHEN THEY ACHIEVED THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF POWER POSSIBLE? Their actions were to repeal taxes and veto unconstitutional spending in most cases. Their actions were to limit government to the enumerated, defined powers.

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

It's a history of the U.S. tax system. I used it only to extract facts about what existed back then. I did not rely on it for analysis, opinion or spin. And it's not my only link.

I don't think so. I believe Jefferson took office in 1801.

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Man up.

You mean you're not going to rush right out and look it up????? LOL.

Yes, he did, after an election in 1800. So the government site is wrong about an easily obtainable and key piece of information. Since they're also the ones purporting that he didn't repeal all excise taxes, and since they obviously have a stake in maintaining taxes (and therefore a conflict of interest), I think the conflicting sources rule out unless disproven:

"1800 - With the assistance of his Secretary of the Treasury, Albert Gallatin, newly elected Republican President Thomas Jefferson sought to reorient the fiscal policy of the United States. Jefferson’s four main goals included: (1) a reduction in government expenditures, (2) a balanced budget; (3) a decrease in the size of the national debt, and (4) alleviation of the tax burden. The latter two objectives seemed to conflict with one another; specifically, Jefferson's desire to abrogate Hamilton's funded debt plan and retire all government obligations as judiciously as possible required a steady stream of revenue.

Nevertheless, Jefferson abolished all internal taxes, including the whiskey excise tax and the land tax. Meanwhile, the Napoleonic Wars in Europe, though a diplomatic minefield for American statesmen, proved a significant stimulus to the economy of the United States. Vigorous commerce enriched merchants while customs duties swelled the federal Treasury. By 1808 the national debt had been reduced from $80 million to $57 million, even though the Louisiana purchase had added an $11 million liability. By 1806, duties proved so lucrative that Gallatin and Jefferson fretted about what to do with the surplus above that required for debt retirement. Treasury reserves increased from $3 million to $14 million between 1801 and 1808."

http://www.tax.org/Museum/1777-1815.htm

"Jefferson got repealed all the direct federal taxes passed by the Federalists and boasted that ordinary Americans would never see a federal tax collector in their whole lives."

http://www.friesian.com/presiden.htm

"In his term, Jefferson wanted to limit the national government's power. He also wanted to cut the federal budget and lower taxes. Jefferson promised to pay off the national debt, which at that time was $83 million. He encouraged agriculture and trade. To help cut spending, he appointed Albert Gallatin as secretary of treasury. Gallatin worked in the House of Representatives and was a brilliant financer. He greatly cut military and naval spending. Gallatin also cut the staff of the executive branch. Together, he and Jefferson cut the national debt to $43 million. This allowed Jefferson to repeal exise taxes on whiskey and other products and ended all internal taxes."

http://home.earthlink.net/~mrstephen...5-EarlyAmerica

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

Irrelevant. So was slavery. most of the FF accepted that also, and they were wrong.

War has also been around since feudal times, as has crime. Does that mean they're good?

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

Slavery? Yes, slavery was practiced at the time. But slavery was never explicitly sanctioned by the Constitution. It was not enshrined as a right or a power. Taxation was.

Further, slavery was explicitly outlawed by a later amendment. Taxation was not.

My overall point is this. You believe taxation is theft, period. That's fine; just acknowledge that that's a fairly radical idea, unsupported by the context, actions and reality surrounding the founding of this country or its history up to this point. States and the federal government, including and especially those run by the Founding Fathers, routinely collected all sorts of taxes on all sorts of things. You are at odds with the FF, the Constitution, two centuries of legal rulings and centuries of practice prior to that.

Having done that, I'll drop the philosophical point because opinion is disprovable. But I'm still interested in the practical case: please answer my questions in the other thread on how society would function without taxes enforced by law, and without government having a monopoly on violence or coercive law-enforcement power.

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Man up.

Which according to your information is the truth. Excise taxes at the time were on primarily imports and not an internal tax.

This also proves that federal direct income taxes are not needed for a country to prosper.

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"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice." ~Thomas Paine

That's something of a nonsensical statement. No given tax is necessary for a country to prosper, but *some* level of taxation is necessary for government to function. The only question is what taxes will raise the amount needed with the most efficiency/least unwanted side effects.

We got by without direct taxes for 40 years because the federal government was tiny. Meaning, of course, that federal services were nonexistent, too. And even then, a major source of revenue was selling federal land -- not a sustainable idea. Whenever a crisis popped up, the government needed more revenue -- and the direct taxes returned.

And that's just the federal level. State and local governments continued to levy taxes throughout this period.

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Man up.