Thread: Assumptions of "handouts to poor people."

Originally Posted by Not Amused

That is because those rich people give some of that money back, above board, and under the table.

Yes, I estimate the average return on investment for bribing politicians is at least 10,000%. The people who study corruption always remark at how little money it takes to buy such enormously valuable favors.

The vast majority of the "handouts" for the rich that libs complain about are tax credits. If those count as handouts the money the poor collects in handouts is still much larger than the amount that the rich receive.

How much money goes toward the EITC, the Making Work Pay credit, the various education credits, savings credits, etc - most of which the rich aren't even eligible for?

Originally Posted by fmw

They are anything but leaders. If we pay attention to what politicians say then we still get what we deserve.

That was true when government was small. But now, the size the federal government government passed the tipping point.

If they want to aid a union, like the UAW, bankruptcy rules are ignored.

They want to punish a company (for not "contributing" to their campaign), they tie them up in court.

They want to punish an individual, there is always the IRS, and soon Obamacare (you got to buy this insurances, and we aren't going to cover that procedure).

Originally Posted by hiimjered

The vast majority of the "handouts" for the rich that libs complain about are tax credits.

I don't know about "libs," but tax credits are not the vast majority of the handouts to the rich. The handouts are the privileges -- titles to land and other natural resources, corporate limited liability, IP monopolies, broadcast spectrum allocations, private bank charters that enable them to create money, etc. -- that enable the rich to obtain so much wealth and income without making any commensurate contribution to production.

If those count as handouts the money the poor collects in handouts is still much larger than the amount that the rich receive.

Garbage. The poor don't own the kind of privileges that enable the rich to pocket a large fraction of GDP in return for nothing. The handouts to the rich all happen BEFORE they get any tax credits. The difference between tax credits for the rich and tax credits for the poor is that tax credits for the poor enable them to keep some of the money they rightfully earned, while tax credits for the rich enable them to keep money government gave them through the unjust advantage of privilege.

How much money goes toward the EITC, the Making Work Pay credit, the various education credits, savings credits, etc - most of which the rich aren't even eligible for?

That's almost all money the poor EARNED. The handouts to the rich consist of all the wealth and income they DIDN'T earn. Not taxing it simply solidifies the injustice of giving it to them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Roy L

I don't know about "libs," but tax credits are not the vast majority of the handouts to the rich. The handouts are the privileges -- titles to land and other natural resources, corporate limited liability, IP monopolies, broadcast spectrum allocations, private bank charters that enable them to create money, etc. -- that enable the rich to obtain so much wealth and income without making any commensurate contribution to production.

Those privileges you mention are mostly things that don't come from the government or that come equally to any citizen. Many citizens have property titles and none are handed out - they must be purchased.

Limited corporate liability can be given to any citizen that decides to create a corporation - and anyone who does any kind of business on their own should create one. Forming a corporation is very inexpensive - many lawyers will set one up for you for about $200. This isn't a privilege exclusive to the rich and is in no way a handout.

IP monopolies are for anyone who creates something themselves. Every artist counts on them as does every garage inventor. These also aren't exclusive to the rich, nor are they handed out by the government.

Spectrum allocations aren't handed out, they are bid on and purchased by the people who want them.

What you describe aren't handouts and aren't exclusive to the rich.

Originally Posted by hiimjered

Those privileges you mention are mostly things that don't come from the government or that come equally to any citizen.

The privileges he mentioned all come from government and they most certainly don’t “come equally to any citizen”. If they did they would be classified as rights and not privileges.

Many citizens have property titles and none are handed out - they must be purchased.

Titles to slave also were not handed out, they were purchased. Does the purchasing of a title to a slave make slavery any less oppressive?

The point is that those excluded by the privilege (the ones whose natural rights are being violated) are not paid anything … that’s what makes it a handout.

Limited corporate liability can be given to any citizen that decides to create a corporation - and anyone who does any kind of business on their own should create one.

Right, because then you can transfer your risks onto society … just good business, eh. Nothing like making the taxpayers and consumers pay for your failures.

Forming a corporation is very inexpensive - many lawyers will set one up for you for about $200. This isn't a privilege exclusive to the rich and is in no way a handout.

So for about $200 you can make society eat the costs of your failure … sounds great for you, but it sucks for everyone else. In my town the taxpayers have paid millions of $$$ to clean up after a chemical company, but the stockholders of that company made millions before the hazardous pollutions were found out. Now the stockholders are rich and the taxpayers are that much poorer … and you don’t call that privilege?

IP monopolies are for anyone who creates something themselves.

That is a flat out lie.

Every artist counts on them as does every garage inventor.

William Shakespeare did just fine without IP privileges. IP monopolies (also referred to as patent thickets) are acutely an inventors worst nightmare. Luckily IP monopolies didn’t apply to computer technology when most of the inventions that make up your computer were first developed … otherwise much of the technology wouldn’t exist or would be priced out of range for most consumers.

These also aren't exclusive to the rich, nor are they handed out by the government.

But they violate the rights of the excluded and they are enforced by government.

Spectrum allocations aren't handed out, they are bid on and purchased by the people who want them.

And they take something that was free for anyone to use and made it into the private property of the privilege holder. Now everyone must pay to use what was free before the privilege was issued … a clear violation of the rights of all those now excluded. This particular privilege is how the richest man in the world gained his fortune.

What you describe aren't handouts...

They most certainly are handouts. They are special rights which allow the holder to violate the natural rights of the excluded, and without paying compensation.

...aren't exclusive to the rich.

But the rich all own or otherwise benefit from at least one of them … that ought to tell you something.

Originally Posted by Stonebolt

I've noticed a pattern. Many voters are angry whenever any sort of tax increases are proposed, which is normal and understandable. But I feel really irritated whenever I hear that they're complaining of that money going to "handouts to poor people." I mean, "handouts to poor people" are one of only dozens of uses for public funding. Taxes can be used to pay off debts, strengthen the military, increase scientific research, perform routine maintenance (that might actually save money in the long run if you do it now)...

I could literally sit here for half an hour and spend the whole time listing more things that public funding does. That's why it makes me mad when people assume they know why a tax increase is happening. Why do people assume that tax increases are for more "handouts to poor people."

When taxes go up we don't pay down the national debt. What we do is start more entitlement programs or increase the ones we have.

Originally Posted by hiimjered

Those privileges you mention are mostly things that don't come from the government

They all come from government. You are just lying. Apologists for greed, privilege, injustice and evil always have to lie.

or that come equally to any citizen.

That's an absurd lie.

Many citizens have property titles and none are handed out - they must be purchased.

They are handed out by government to the privileged. Slaves also had to be purchased. That didn't mean ownership of slaves was not a privilege issued and enforced by government.

Limited corporate liability can be given to any citizen that decides to create a corporation - and anyone who does any kind of business on their own should create one.

But only makes sense for those who are planning, and have the money, to push large liabilities onto taxpayers.

Forming a corporation is very inexpensive - many lawyers will set one up for you for about $200. This isn't a privilege exclusive to the rich and is in no way a handout.

It is most certainly a handout, and it is mostly the rich who have the money to profit from it, because it takes money to buy corporate stock.

IP monopolies are for anyone who creates something themselves.

Lie.

Every artist counts on them

You are flat-out lying. Most of the world's greatest art and literature was created without IP monopolies. Shakespeare never owned a copyright, and if copyrights had existed, he could not have written some of his plays, as he copied many plot elements from other playwrights, especially Marlowe.

as does every garage inventor.

Oh, stop telling such outrageous lies. The great majority of garage inventors never even apply for a patent, as it's too expensive to get or to prosecute one. Only the rich and their corporations can afford the lawyers.

These also aren't exclusive to the rich,

The rich get almost all the benefit. I know, personally, a top Nortel engineer whose name is on dozens of patents and whose team designed most of the switches the Internet runs on. He and the other Nortel engineers who ACTUALLY INVENTED THE TECHNOLOGY were paid a pittance compared to the shareholders and corporate greedmeisters who got all the money. Even the stock options they were granted only vested long after top management had used their back-dated options to rip billions out of the company, crashing the stock, and ended up worthless.

nor are they handed out by the government.

They are indisputably handed out by the government, stop lying.

Spectrum allocations aren't handed out, they are bid on and purchased by the people who want them.

ROTFL!! Are you really unaware of the rigged spectrum auction scandal?

http://ideas.repec.org/p/pcc/pccumd/00jre.html

The world's richest man, Carlos Selim Helu, made most of his money through a rigged spectrum auction that gave him control of Mexico's cell phone spectrum for a song.

What you describe aren't handouts and aren't exclusive to the rich.

They are indisputably handouts, the rich get almost all the benefit of them, and that benefit is AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE MORE THAN THE POOR EVER GET.