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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 05:22 AM
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Lzaziness? A large number of people, especially social conservatives... but I agree with them on this... believe that a parent should make a full-time job of raising children, at least until they're old enough to be allowed some autonomy.
Plus studies have shown that the amount of cost implicit to taking care of a kid with both parents working is high enough to make it pointless for the second one to work.

It's also worth noting that aside from its constant use as a rhetorical device... people do not choose what they get paid. Someone is going to be stuck with the low-paying jobs. And if you create a system that allows income disparity to get out of control and creates a system for the wealthier to have absolute control... expect the wages to drop... and more to be disenfranchised.
Your system requires a completely moral ruling dynasty of rich folks who pass on decency in every generation. No checks and balances.
This kind of tax system would logically lead to a whole new form of government. Oligarchy... and bring an end to social mobility.
It would change us from a class-based capitalist system to a caste-based corporatist system.

Sometimes what sounds like "justice" on paper ends up being disaster when applied to real life. I realize some people believe "justice" includes greater suffering for all humanity... but then again justice for most of human existence has involved exchanged murders and thefts between tribes.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 05:37 AM
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Default You can't be serious

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Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
Lzaziness? A large number of people, especially social conservatives... but I agree with them on this... believe that a parent should make a full-time job of raising children, at least until they're old enough to be allowed some autonomy.
Plus studies have shown that the amount of cost implicit to taking care of a kid with both parents working is high enough to make it pointless for the second one to work.
So you agree that the tax system of today encourages the wrong people to reproduce... you can't be serious when you call such a system »just«.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 06:36 AM
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So you agree that the tax system of today encourages the wrong people to reproduce... you can't be serious when you call such a system »just«.
Do you believe the tax system is the primary determinant of who reproduces. Taxes or none, a lot of well-off and smart people only have a few children. There are a lot of reasons not to have kids in a society that is not agrarian or if you are not living in a disease-ridden cesspool.
Poor people are always more likely to reproduce independent of belief system. They have more need for a large family to eventually support them. Belief systems, though, seem to be a large variable in how many kids people have.
There are always going to be more jobs for the poor than jobs for the well-off... so I would venture to guess that if we want a population large enough to sustain the economy, we need poor people to reproduce (considering the number of births that are accidents in all classes, it would still happen). Especially if you don't want to depend on immigrants to replace the population (which it seems from other threads, you wouldn't like). I also don't believe the government should be actively involved in telling us which people can have kids.
By all the numbers and crap, my wife and I are people who "should" reproduce... but it is not in our plan as of yet. Besides our kid would probably be against eugenics too.
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Old 05-04-2007, 12:08 AM
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Default And why?

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Poor people are always more likely to reproduce
And why? Because the system encourages them to do so by lowering their tax burden and offering them lots and lots of »social« help.

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There are always going to be more jobs for the poor than jobs for the well-off...
I doubt that. The more developed a nation becomes, the more demanding the jobs it offers become. Why are people »poor«? Because they are not intelligent enough to get a job that pays good - but requires a good qualification. The more developed a nation becomes, the less jobs for »poor« (i. e. dummies) it will offer.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 05:34 AM
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And why? Because the system encourages them to do so by lowering their tax burden and offering them lots and lots of »social« help.
They would without this. The programs are a reaction to reality. They do not create it.

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I doubt that. The more developed a nation becomes, the more demanding the jobs it offers become. Why are people »poor«? Because they are not intelligent enough to get a job that pays good - but requires a good qualification. The more developed a nation becomes, the less jobs for »poor« (i. e. dummies) it will offer.
What jobs are available have a lot to do with where and how you grow up... but even so... there are labor jobs. There will be labor jobs. They are necessary. So shouldn't the people who do them have some place in our society? Are you for the Hindu caste system, particularly the concept of untouchables? India doesn't have much use for it anymore. Maybe they'll sell it to you.
And if labor jobs are eliminated... what happens next? The "better" jobs become devalued. The people with them become the new poor. They either get paid less... or prices go up.
We still need poor people.

It's the able-bodied folks who don't work at all you've got a beef with. Why take it out on working folks and disabled and families that believe in raising kids themselves? And frankly I'd argue that the current welfare state victimizes the able-bodied who don't work by making them dependent rather than pushing them to work.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2007, 12:49 AM
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Default We still need poor people???

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And why? Because the system encourages them to do so by lowering their tax burden and offering them lots and lots of »social« help.
They would without this. The programs are a reaction to reality. They do not create it.
So you deem it necessary that the government has to »react« and give our hard-earned money to people who do reproduce just because of that? I disagree.

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I doubt that. The more developed a nation becomes, the more demanding the jobs it offers become. Why are people »poor«? Because they are not intelligent enough to get a job that pays good - but requires a good qualification. The more developed a nation becomes, the less jobs for »poor« (i. e. dummies) it will offer.
What jobs are available have a lot to do with where and how you grow up... but even so... there are labor jobs. There will be labor jobs. They are necessary. So shouldn't the people who do them have some place in our society? Are you for the Hindu caste system, particularly the concept of untouchables? India doesn't have much use for it anymore. Maybe they'll sell it to you.
And if labor jobs are eliminated... what happens next? The "better" jobs become devalued. The people with them become the new poor. They either get paid less... or prices go up.
We still need poor people.
Maybe you do. I don't.

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Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
It's the able-bodied folks who don't work at all you've got a beef with. Why take it out on working folks and disabled and families that believe in raising kids themselves? And frankly I'd argue that the current welfare state victimizes the able-bodied who don't work by making them dependent rather than pushing them to work.
So people who get my money - because the government forces me to do so by the threat of capital punishment - are the victims and I am the wrongdoer because I work hard for my money? You astound me.
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Old 05-07-2007, 05:14 AM
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No. The wife would just have to work, too - and so double the income. That would be sufficient for the tax burden - especially as the cost of living would be significantly lower than today as there would be no other tax (e.g. VAT or state tax) at all.

I do not understand why you think other taxpayers should subsidize the lazyness of certain people who do not want to work.
1) Why is Java still debating with this person?

2) What % of taxes do you believe go to subsidizing lazy people?

3) Do you consider 65+ year old white women to be lazy? (Hint: What demographic group is the largest recipient of welfare)

Old white lady "Excuse me sonny, would you mind helping me cross the street?"
Crazy guy "Hey you lazy scumbag, why are you not at work instead of out here looking for a helping hand and other people to do everything for you?"


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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2007, 05:22 AM
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So people who get my money - because the government forces me to do so by the threat of capital punishment - are the victims and I am the wrongdoer because I work hard for my money? You astound me.
Where do you get that?
But speaking of astounding... I'm amazed by people who believe they are islands. Do you not understand how the economy works. The reason you can get by doing one job and survive... is because other people are doing other jobs so you don't have to. This includes jobs held by people you deem "useless" because they make less money than you.

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1) Why is Java still debating with this person?
It's interesting to see what's in people's heads.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2007, 12:52 AM
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Default Isn't everybody responsible for himself?

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Originally Posted by Ixtellor";p=&quot View Post
1) Why is Java still debating with this person?
Maybe he enjoys the debate?

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2) What % of taxes do you believe go to subsidizing lazy people?
I do not know the numbers for the US. In Germany it's more than 50 (fifty) percent.

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3) Do you consider 65+ year old white women to be lazy?
I think she was when she did not save enough money for a decent old age pension. Isn't everybody responsible for himself?
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2007, 01:05 AM
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Default A matter of respect

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This includes jobs held by people you deem "useless" because they make less money than you.
I do not think so at all. I highly respect everybody who makes his living on his own work.

I just do not know why I should respect people who »make« their living on my expense.
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