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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2004, 12:41 AM
Demosthenes Demosthenes is offline
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I'm telling you, do some reasearch on the strong party system. It is a better system than the one we have and could be a better representation of our people.

-Demosthenes
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2004, 06:10 AM
DanM DanM is offline
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Default Until you reform the incentive system we have

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
I'm telling you, do some reasearch on the strong party system. It is a better system than the one we have and could be a better representation of our people.

-Demosthenes
for elected officials, you are just adding fresh meat to a corrupt and corrosive system. No long term improvement will be made until we reform the way we select and give incentives to those who govern on our behalf.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:46 AM
Demosthenes Demosthenes is offline
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Originally Posted by DanM";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
I'm telling you, do some reasearch on the strong party system. It is a better system than the one we have and could be a better representation of our people.

-Demosthenes
for elected officials, you are just adding fresh meat to a corrupt and corrosive system. No long term improvement will be made until we reform the way we select and give incentives to those who govern on our behalf.
It's kind of hard to do that when the corrupt ones are the ones creating the incentive programs and determining their salaries and benefits. Read my quote, I believe it applies to this situation.

-Demosthenes
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- Dwight D. Eisenhower
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2004, 07:56 PM
DanM DanM is offline
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Default Dem, I read your quote and disagree with it being

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Originally Posted by DanM";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
I'm telling you, do some reasearch on the strong party system. It is a better system than the one we have and could be a better representation of our people.

-Demosthenes
for elected officials, you are just adding fresh meat to a corrupt and corrosive system. No long term improvement will be made until we reform the way we select and give incentives to those who govern on our behalf.
It's kind of hard to do that when the corrupt ones are the ones creating the incentive programs and determining their salaries and benefits. Read my quote, I believe it applies to this situation.

-Demosthenes
the most direct solution. Read my quote about bringing fresh faces into a corrosive political system. You are just giving the old system new people to corrupt.

We have to change the environment first or we will not change anything and that will only come from the people. Our elected leaders will sell their souls for reelection so they are pretty useless in any reform movement. We the people have to decide this is a priority for us at election time. Otherwise it will never change.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2004, 07:04 AM
mcrazz1
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Default Make them accountable

We have the power to change elections. I guarantee if you vote senators and representatives out after their first terms if they do not do what they are supposed to do, they will take notice. I just saw a blurb on a web site where for the first time in history, special interests spent over a billion dollars in a six month period in order to influence our politicians.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-26-2004, 01:11 AM
Demosthenes Demosthenes is offline
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Default .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanM";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanM";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
I'm telling you, do some reasearch on the strong party system. It is a better system than the one we have and could be a better representation of our people.

-Demosthenes
for elected officials, you are just adding fresh meat to a corrupt and corrosive system. No long term improvement will be made until we reform the way we select and give incentives to those who govern on our behalf.
It's kind of hard to do that when the corrupt ones are the ones creating the incentive programs and determining their salaries and benefits. Read my quote, I believe it applies to this situation.

-Demosthenes
the most direct solution. Read my quote about bringing fresh faces into a corrosive political system. You are just giving the old system new people to corrupt.

We have to change the environment first or we will not change anything and that will only come from the people. Our elected leaders will sell their souls for reelection so they are pretty useless in any reform movement. We the people have to decide this is a priority for us at election time. Otherwise it will never change.
So how do you change a system that is set up to resist all real change?

-Demosthenes
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- Dwight D. Eisenhower
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 07-26-2004, 05:40 AM
DanM DanM is offline
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Default There is only one way to really make politicians accountable

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Originally Posted by mcrazz1";p=&quot View Post
We have the power to change elections. I guarantee if you vote senators and representatives out after their first terms if they do not do what they are supposed to do, they will take notice. I just saw a blurb on a web site where for the first time in history, special interests spent over a billion dollars in a six month period in order to influence our politicians.
and sadly thats the most unrealistic resolution we could ever suggest.

It is an informed, motivated and truely issues-oriented electorate. I think its safe to say thats never going to happen.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-26-2004, 05:44 AM
DanM DanM is offline
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Default It has to be an irresistable mandate of the people

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
I'm telling you, do some reasearch on the strong party system. It is a better system than the one we have and could be a better representation of our people.

-Demosthenes
for elected officials, you are just adding fresh meat to a corrupt and corrosive system. No long term improvement will be made until we reform the way we select and give incentives to those who govern on our behalf.
It's kind of hard to do that when the corrupt ones are the ones creating the incentive programs and determining their salaries and benefits. Read my quote, I believe it applies to this situation.

-Demosthenes
the most direct solution. Read my quote about bringing fresh faces into a corrosive political system. You are just giving the old system new people to corrupt.

We have to change the environment first or we will not change anything and that will only come from the people. Our elected leaders will sell their souls for reelection so they are pretty useless in any reform movement. We the people have to decide this is a priority for us at election time. Otherwise it will never change.
So how do you change a system that is set up to resist all real change?

-Demosthenes
I know this seems pretty unlikely, but another guy like Ross Perot (with maybe a little more mental stability) could by the catalyst. We need someone to beat it into the thick skulls of Americans that our current system is set up to give politicans an incentive to screw them. Show them the problem and then show them the solution (campaign finance reform)

Of course it will not be some movement based in deeply held convictions or serious intellectual dedate, but it could still happen along the lines of a mass emotional response or a fad. Heck, if Country and Western line dancing or Disco could capture the imagination of a country, then I don't see why this issue could not do the same thing provided it had the right catalyst.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 07-26-2004, 06:02 AM
Demosthenes Demosthenes is offline
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So basically, it's going to take a person who can connect with the masses of America, convince them and make them understand what is wrong with the system, then claiming to represent the masses "call out" congress and dare them to go against the will of the people. Oh, and they have to have the financial backing to do it. Sounds easy enough.

-Demosthenes
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 07-26-2004, 05:28 PM
DanM DanM is offline
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Default Not quite what I meant, but my scenario is equally unlikely

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Originally Posted by Demosthenes";p=&quot View Post
So basically, it's going to take a person who can connect with the masses of America, convince them and make them understand what is wrong with the system, then claiming to represent the masses "call out" congress and dare them to go against the will of the people. Oh, and they have to have the financial backing to do it. Sounds easy enough.

-Demosthenes
Someone who connects with the masses and makes it a popular issue that our elected leaders feel the need to coopt in an effort to be reelected. The elected officials will move towards the stated will of the people if it is clearly defined and overwhelming in the polls. Since such a thing happens so infrequently, I know it seems like a theoretical discussion.

It does not have to be an independently wealthy person, but this would be the most direct route. Some hybrid of John McCain's political vision (centerist and focused heavily on issues of good government) combined with Howard Dean's grassroots organization could probably accomplish the same thing.

Heck, I do not have a crystal ball so I am pulling these scenarios out of thin air. The important thing to remember is that neither of the two parties owned by Washington special interests will advocate anything like this.
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