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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug_yvr View Post
He was a 'child soldier' according to the international agreement that applies, which the US is a signatory to.
Unicef?

haha, sorry. Try the Geneva Conventions and pay close attention to the part where they are not to be considered soldiers if they do not wear some sort of uniforms and a relevant chain of command. Also, they are not to hide among civilians and target other civilians.

No, he was not a Child soldier, he was a child terrorist.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 10:42 AM
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haha, sorry. Try the Geneva Conventions and pay close attention to the part where they are not to be considered soldiers if they do not wear some sort of uniforms and a relevant chain of command. Also, they are not to hide among civilians and target other civilians.
This has already been discredited all over the forum. US courts have ruled otherwise.

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No, he was not a Child soldier, he was a child terrorist.
There is no distinction under international law or agreements.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug_yvr View Post
This has already been discredited all over the forum. US courts have ruled otherwise.


There is no distinction under international law or agreements.
No, I have seen claims that they should be under the Geneva Conventions, but I have not seen anything that said that they ARE.

There is a distinction in the GC as to what a soldier is.
Omar would be a Child Enemy Combatant or a unpriviledged combatant.

The SCOTUS ruling was that they were to be entitled to access to the US justice system, not that they were 'soldiers' entitled to Geneva Conventions coverage.

Regardless, the inmates at GITMO are treated better than most as far as prisoners go.

They just are not soldiers.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by White Doors View Post
No, I have seen claims that they should be under the Geneva Conventions, but I have not seen anything that said that they ARE.
The Supreme Court says they are.

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There is a distinction in the GC as to what a soldier is.
Omar would be a Child Enemy Combatant or a unpriviledged combatant.
Now you're just making stuff up. Neither 'Child Enemy Combatant' nor 'unpriviledged combatant' exist in law. Anyway see the Supreme Court decision.

Quote:
The SCOTUS ruling was that they were to be entitled to access to the US justice system, not that they were 'soldiers' entitled to Geneva Conventions coverage.
Wrong. Read their decision.

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Regardless, the inmates at GITMO are treated better than most as far as prisoners go.
Completely irrelevant.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 02:51 PM
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The Supreme Court says they are
No, the supreme court said that they should not be tried by military court.
It did not rule that the prisoners fell under the Geneva Conventions.


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Now you're just making stuff up. Neither 'Child Enemy Combatant' nor 'unpriviledged combatant' exist in law. Anyway see the Supreme Court decision.
Incorrect.
read here

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Wrong. Read their decision.
I did, you should read it. They did not rule that the Geneva Conventions applied to them. (probably because they don't have the jurisdiction to do so. lol)


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Completely irrelevant
Irrelevent? Of course if you were in anyway concerned about the plight of the prisoners, I think it would be relevant.

However, if you are only interested in it as an attack vehicle vis a vis the Bush government and/or the USA - then I can see why it would be 'completely irrelevent' to you.

Last edited by White Doors; 06-08-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by White Doors View Post
No, the supreme court said that they should not be tried by military court.
It did not rule that the prisoners fell under the Geneva Conventions.
You need to read the article I linked. Here's the relevant part:
Quote:
The US Supreme Court today blocked the trial of Guantanamo Bay prisoners in special military courts, ruling that the process drawn up by the Bush Administration broke both American law and the Geneva Conventions.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug_yvr View Post
You need to read the article I linked. Here's the relevant part:
Yes, I read that. I sm still looking for the part where they said that the Geneva Conventions applied to them. Oh that's right. They didn't because they can't. They used US law for this ruling.
They may think that it violated the Geneva Conventions, but they have not ruled that the GC apply to them. HRW and Amnesty International have said that they should be, but have thus far been able to have the GC apply to these prisoners, as soldiers, in any event.

The GC was drawn up to have rules on how countries would deal with each others prisoners in times of war. The GC never pretended to account for combatants who refuse to follow the rules of conflict and implicitley and repeatedly says that the GC as it pertains to POW's does not apply to them.

There is an argument about wether two subsequent subsections of the GC should apply to them, but if you understand GC Article 4 you would know that it is not about soldiers but about citizens.
There is legal discussion if all the articles are meant to be taken as a whole or can the earlier restrictions and laws apply to all. If the latter definition is taken then the GC still would not apply to them - even as citizens.

Do you still think that there is no such thing as unpriveledged combatants?

Last edited by White Doors; 06-08-2009 at 04:54 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by White Doors View Post
Yes, I read that. I sm still looking for the part where they said that the Geneva Conventions applied to them. Oh that's right. They didn't because they can't. They used US law for this ruling.
Gee I don't know what to say here WD. You are completely wrong. The full Supreme Court decision can be read here. On the very first page the decision specifically states that the Geneva Convention applies to the prisoners.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 06-09-2009, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug_yvr View Post
Gee I don't know what to say here WD. You are completely wrong. The full Supreme Court decision can be read here. On the very first page the decision specifically states that the Geneva Convention applies to the prisoners.
I think you have to be misunderstanding the legal jargon.
They are saying that being tried by military commissions (which is what Bush wanted to do) would only be applicable IF the prisoner was a POW under the third convention which they said it had not been determined that he was.

Quote:
The District Court granted habeas relief and stayed the commis-sion’s proceedings, concluding that the President’s authority to estab-lish military commissions extends only to offenders or offenses triableby such a commission under the law of war; that such law includesthe Third Geneva Convention; that Hamdan is entitled to that Con-vention’s full protections until adjudged, under it, not to be a prisonerof war; and that, whether or not Hamdan is properly classified a pris-oner of war, the commission convened to try him was established in
2 HAMDAN v. RUMSFELD
Syllabus
violation of both the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), 10
U. S. C. §801 et seq., and Common Article 3 of the Third Geneva Con-vention because it had the power to convict based on evidence the ac-cused would never see or hear.
I think you need to read it again.
Your conclusion is not supported by your evidence.
I do admit, I can see how you could make the mistake, easily, however.

Last edited by White Doors; 06-09-2009 at 03:15 AM.
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