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Old 11-27-2005, 08:04 PM
DuH DuH is offline
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Default neocons NeoCons NEOCONS~!!!!!!

You hear/read the term NeoCon alot. Often its said by the far left or others on the left in a disparaging manner as if NeoCons are evil or something dastardly.

PNAC(aka Project for the New American Century) is who they are referring to.

Below is their Statement of Principles-

Quote:
June 3, 1997

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.


As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?


We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.


Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next

Sounds really horrible huh.....

I suppose if your a communist/fascist/etc, a dictator, or simply hate America its horrible....but I can't imagine most Americans would oppose the basic outline displayed..in fact its been shown that the majority by far do not.

Im not a NeoCon..of course I've been called one by those who call everyone that..but I thiink its prudent to know what people are referring to when they seem to think calling someone a NeoCon is the equivelant of calling them a bad name.

IMO being called a NeoCon is almost akin to being called a Patriot...or an American.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2005, 08:13 PM
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danarhea danarhea is offline
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Default Sorry, but you got it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuH";p=&quot View Post
You hear/read the term NeoCon alot. Often its said by the far left or others on the left in a disparaging manner as if NeoCons are evil or something dastardly.

PNAC(aka Project for the New American Century) is who they are referring to.

Below is their Statement of Principles-

Quote:
June 3, 1997

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.


As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?


We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.


Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next

Sounds really horrible huh.....

I suppose if your a communist/fascist/etc, a dictator, or simply hate America its horrible....but I can't imagine most Americans would oppose the basic outline displayed..in fact its been shown that the majority by far do not.

Im not a NeoCon..of course I've been called one by those who call everyone that..but I thiink its prudent to know what people are referring to when they seem to think calling someone a NeoCon is the equivelant of calling them a bad name.

IMO being called a NeoCon is almost akin to being called a Patriot...or an American.
Actually, you might read this link to see what Neocons really are, since you are wrong.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:26 PM
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Default This is shaping into a good summary.

We have DuH's sympathetic spin, straight from the mouths of the horses, the very people we expect to pay lip service to themselves. Danarhea has brought in the opposing view from one of the neo-cons' harshest critics.
Now personally I view the neocons' goals as noble but their methods as misguided and haphazard. But despite that, I kind of like being able to see the two extremes of spin together. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:30 PM
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Default .

What?

WILLIAM KRISTOL

IS the Chairman of PNAC

PNAC=NeoCons and always has.

When you say Neocon you are referring to PNAC and their position IS the NeoCon position.






Java- You can call what I said spin.. thats fine.. its simply my opinion of what I read. The Statement of Principles though is simply the basic message/ideology/whathaveyou of NeoCons it no more spin then similar statements from any political organization.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:34 PM
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danarhea danarhea is offline
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Default ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuH";p=&quot View Post
What?


WILLIAM KRISTOL

IS the Chairman of PNAC

PNAC=NeoCons and always has.

Whne you say Neocon you are referring to PNAC and their position IS the NeoCon position.
NO. The term "Neocon" was around long before PNAC. It was first defined by Irving Kristol, the father of the Neoconservative movement and former Communist Party member. He defined Neocon as a Liberal who is mugged by reality. Incidentally, his son, William Kristol, calls himself a Neoliberal, and defines that word as a Neocon who has been mugged by the reality of Iraq.

The vast majority of the Neocons who started PNAC were either former Communists or former Liberals.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:38 PM
DuH DuH is offline
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Default .

Oh for christ sakes...


When you and others here refer to a Neocons what do you refer to a communists/liberal?..No




PNAC and its followers is what YOU are referring to and everyone knows it.


So knock it off.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:41 PM
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Default Not quite what I meant

I suppose "spin" wasn't the right word and I wasn't referring to your words, but to the quote. I was only suggesting that the information from the organization is likely to be thoroughly dry-cleaned and sprayed with rose-scented aerosol. Buchanon's critique represents the other side.
I like the contrast. It's one of those things that makes the Internet great.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:43 PM
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Default ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuH";p=&quot View Post
Oh for christ sakes...


When you and others here refer to a Neocons what do you refer to a communists/liberal?..No




PNAC and its followers is what YOU are referring to and everyone knows it.


So knock it off.
You should learn to read the links. Irving Kristol defined the word Neocon. He was a card-carrying member of the Trotskyite faction of the Communist Party when at New York University. When he quit the Communist Party, he came up with a plan for a new kind of Conservative, and defined the word "Neoconservative". This was many years before PNAC was even around. Neoconservatives were in the Reagan administration, but Reagan kept them at arms length. Bush Sr, while VP in the Reagan administration, referred to the Neocons as "the crazies in the basement". Again, this was during the 1980's. PNAC did not exist then.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:45 PM
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Default .

I tend to see neoconservatives (I'm not referring to catzmeow, since I don't think that the label rightfully applies to her) as too soft on the issues that matter (moral conservatism and paying down our deficits) and far too hawkish. I hate to put it in this way, but they seem like the worst of both worlds. This is a good quote from Pat Buchanan:

" Kristol's warning that neoconservatives could go to Kerry was an admission of what many have long recognized. The neoconservatives are not really conservatives at all. They are impostors and opportunists. They were Leftists in the 1930s, New Deal and Great Society Democrats through the 1960s, and slid to the right and the Republicans after Nixon and Reagan began rolling up forty-nine state landslides. They defected from liberalism only when they saw conservatism in the ascendancy, and they rode the Reagan revolution into power... Their agenda-endless struggle and war if necessary to impose secular democracy and social revolution on the Islamic world-is neo-Jacobin, out of the French, not the American Revolution. "
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:49 PM
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Default Good quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceoftheTruth";p=&quot View Post
I tend to see neoconservatives (I'm not referring to catzmeow, since I don't think that the label rightfully applies to her) as too soft on the issues that matter (moral conservatism and paying down our deficits) and far too hawkish. I hate to put it in this way, but they seem like the worst of both worlds. This is a good quote from Pat Buchanan:

" Kristol's warning that neoconservatives could go to Kerry was an admission of what many have long recognized. The neoconservatives are not really conservatives at all. They are impostors and opportunists. They were Leftists in the 1930s, New Deal and Great Society Democrats through the 1960s, and slid to the right and the Republicans after Nixon and Reagan began rolling up forty-nine state landslides. They defected from liberalism only when they saw conservatism in the ascendancy, and they rode the Reagan revolution into power... Their agenda-endless struggle and war if necessary to impose secular democracy and social revolution on the Islamic world-is neo-Jacobin, out of the French, not the American Revolution. "
Good quote, and dont forget the fact that William Kristol calls himself a Neoliberal these days. You could say that he is going back to where he came from.
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