That's a pretty off-the-wall thing to say.

Is "armed conflict" the only way you see the world?

Hey DUH2 - have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking?

You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

Is that where you want to go with all this?

No more rape please.

These people need to take Religion 151 and learn it from a historical, scientific standpoint.

I went to Egypt a few years ago and met a boy a little younger about 18. He was a camel-herder and son of a tour-guide; probably upper-middle class for their area. He called me a "person of the book" even though I told him I don't go to church at all. He asked me what they teach us about Islam in American schools. He asked if they teach us that Islam is evil. Everything he had ever learned his whole life was from a single mosque from a few individuals.

Of course I replied that we are free to study what ever we want. I wasn't able to express the concept of freedom to him, he just didn't understand no matter what I said.

He invited me into his home and was very polite and made nice conversation, yet I was afraid. He had an attitude of superiority when he told me, "it's ok, it's not your fault." I got chills when he said that. I was a "person of the book" and according to him I had strayed from the path. I was half expecting his religious leader to pop out from the bushes and start preaching to me (or beating me with a stick). That was a different kind of fear I would never be exposed to at home.

Anyway long story blah blah... I agree it is going to take everyone's patience, education, and money.

If he regards you as a "person of the Book" you are not in any trouble from him. People of the Book are, even under old Dracconian, Muhammed-as-a-general rules, are not to be killed but simply preached at. People of the Book originally included Jews and Christians, but was eventually extended to include Hindus- illustrating the ability of Islam, like all religions, to change as circumstances necessitate.
Now some other fundie with a "kill Westerners" mentality might not stop just because you are a person of the book.
But I've had a similar experience with a Muslim from Egypt in a coffee shop in America. The difference: didn't feel any sense of danger. Really wasn't much different from my encounters with my friend's Mormon parents or Jehovah's Witnesses.
I think your fear either stems from the environment more than the person. I would probably have been much more terrified had I met the Muslim acquaintance in his home in Egypt rather than in a coffee shop in America. As it was, meeting him in America was a bit awkward, but overall educational.
I enjoy meeting people of other religions (I suppose anyone with a religion is "other religion" to me), but I have to admit I'd be a bit more freaked out about it if I met them outside my home or neutral territory, especially in an area notorious for ethnic violence.

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"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside

Good article below by Thomas P.M. Barnett addresses aspects of islam's reformation in the Middle-East.


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Ultimately, we're trying to connect the Middle East to the global economy on the basis of something besides oil, turning all those idle young males into stakeholders instead of bomb-throwers. Meanwhile, the radical Salafi jihadists seek to disconnect the region from what they see as the corrupting - and growing - influence of globalization.

Here's the good news: Time is on our side.

First, consider the demographics. The Middle East is overwhelmingly young, with roughly two-thirds of its population under 30. As a result, a huge youth bulge is working its way through these traditional societies, creating immense strains on modest educational systems and setting up authoritarian governments for persistently high levels of unemployment - a great mix for revolutionary change throughout history.

After a baby boom, there's typically a baby bust, and sure enough, fertility rates have dropped dramatically across the Middle East. That demographic inevitability yields the following positive trend: The Middle East will "middle age" over the next quarter-century.

Revolutions are a young man's game, so Osama bin Laden has barely a generation to achieve his dream of civilizational apartheid. Because, if he can't, we'll be looking at a very different Middle East come 2025.





Three external trends will fuel this transformation, each producing a profound blowback to the region.

The first will arise in North America, and it will involve Islam's religious reformation at the hands of women within its ranks. Unlike in Europe, our Muslim immigrants are not socially and economically ghettoized, so it's not surprising that Muslim women, once exposed to our gender equality, have begun agitating for a greater role in the practice of their community-defining faith.

And, yes, that demonstration effect will reach the Middle East.



The second blowback will come from Europe, and it will involve Islam's political reformation. Islamist parties will eventually emerge throughout Europe, inevitably mainstreaming themselves in the electoral process much in the same way that Marxist parties did during the Cold War. It sounds inconceivable, but it will be a very good thing because it will reduce the socio-economic isolation of Muslim communities there. Europe either draws Muslims into the political process or resigns itself to watching numerous reruns of last year's Paris riots.

And, yes, that demonstration effect will reach the Middle East.



The third blowback will come from Asia, and it will involve Islam's economic reformation. The "lead geese" economies here will be Singapore, Indonesia and especially Malaysia, where its current prime minister, Islamic scholar Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, is handcrafting a market-friendly and democracy-tolerant form of Islamic civilization. These Islamic states give proof to the lie that their religion lacks the genetic makeup to embrace globalization's demands for economic and political freedom.

And, yes, that demonstration effect will reach the Middle East.



Add it all up, and you quickly realize that our victory isn't defined as hunting down and killing every Islamic terrorist but simply not allowing their murderous tactics to poison these much-needed reformation trends within globalizing Islam. With time, such trends push the Middle East to age out of its current political and economic stagnation.

complete article here: http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/opinion_...777551,00.html
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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

Raytri--Your analysis reminds me of the old saying....."I'm drowing here and you're describing the water!"

Really---what difference does it make WHY it's happening? What if someone duirng the turmoil of the 60's regarding racism in this country said...."Oh, it's just our country's turmoil of adolescents; something we gotta go through as we mature. We just need to be patient and spend more money on the problem and eventually it will go away?" That doesn't really help those going through it at the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying that we should just be patient and eventually they'll come around. That doesn't help those innocent Americans and westerners who are getting killed by the extremists Muslims who cannot seem to accept or tolerate others beliefs.

Describing it as "adolescent growing pains" just doesn't cut it with me. If they have a problem figuring out their religion, that's their problem; not ours. They have to be made to realize that you don't go around killing people who don't believe as you do.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007

That is what I'm saying, but I certainly think we should defend ourselves in the meantime!

It's important because putting the problem in perspective helps guide our response. If the problem is Islams' growing pains rather than Islam itself, that suggests different strategies.

It's like dealing with cancer vs. dealing with a deadly flu. Both can kill you. One's a more urgent threat, yet if you survive the first few days you're probably okay. The other is a more long-term threat that even if treated could recur at any time. Thus you approach them not only with different treatments but with different expectations and mental states.

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Man up.

ONLY defensive....or offensive?

Unfortunately I think we've "been there, done that" before. We underestimated the threat before WWII.....as did all of Europe. Six million people were slaughtered while the world stood by and downplayed what was really happening. AND in Viet Nam we said, "We'll fight with less than what we have; on their terms, and with only half our heart in it." And we all know what happened there. It's hard to believe that anybody could imagine this latest threat is anything less than EXTREMELY serious.....after what happened on 9/11 and many other attacks across the world. I truly don't know what else you would REQUIRE before acknowledging the serious threat our country is facing right now.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007

Where did I say it wasn't serious? I don't think it's as serious as you do -- I don't think terrorism threatens our national existence, for example -- but it's still something that needs dealing with.

I think our response should be mostly defensive. Defensive can mean occasional offensive strikes, but if the problem really is Islam's internal struggle, than what are we attacking? We need to give them room to work it out and just keep it from boiling over by making ourselves a hard target and taking out the people who try to expand the war to us.

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Man up.

islamic reformation-lol-yes we need it badly-need to chase out all the monarchies in middle ewast and hold elections like in palestine.remove jordan king,saudi king,mushraff,etc.what we need is real leaders like ahmedinejad and mahatir mohammed-especially mahatir mohammed he had a great knowledge and was a great leader of the muslims

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http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm
anti orthodox jews hate israel
www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/

Well, Raytri.....I hope you read Political's last post....and then ........

I REST MY CASE!!

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007