His post strikes me as largely irrelevant.

And heck, I support the general idea of replacing monarchies with democracies. Don't you?

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Man up.

First off, your premise relative to the beginnings of Judaism and Christianity are inaccurate. The Judeo/Christian faith is not about a people "forming" a religion. Rather, it is about a sovereign God calling a people unto Himself, by revealing Himself to us, first through Abraham, then Moses, the prophets, the Kings and ultimately in the person of Jesus and the Apostles. The begining point in the Judeo/Christian religion is not man, it is God. God is not some distant "idea" man has to figure out a religion to explain. God is the one who first reached out to humankind, revealed Himself and made Himself known. Second, the Reformation was much more political than it was religious. Certainly the reformers had significant impact on the political landscape, but the wars waged were waged primarily for political rather than theological reasons. Lastly, if Islam is to reform, Islamists will have to reform it. I see zero hope in this area. When Muslim clerics sit with closed mouths when innocents are beheaded in the name of their religion, you have one very sick religion. Not all Islamists are evil, but Islam is an evil religion.

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"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
Winston Churchill

I agree with Raytri. I have alot of Muslim friend and they are very westernize (i.e. they drink and go on dates) but yet they love their religion and are very knowledgable about it. I think Reformation will come from American Muslim that have grown up in an multi-cultural environment and have learned to live with ppl of different faiths.

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In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the king
- Nas

Whatever you say. From the point of view of an agnostic, they look quite the same, with the exception that Christianity was built around a man rather than growing out of the warrior religion of a nomadic culture.

Agreed, but it was of a piece, in part because it had to settle issues like the divine right of kings and the temporal power of the church.

Muslims will have to reform it. Islamists? How do you define that?

Then I guess we could call Christianity an evil religion based on what they did to heretics and Jews a few hundred years back.

Islam had a more recent, more violent birth. But Judaism's birth wasn't particularly peaceful; it just happened 3,000 years earlier. Judaism got over it. Islam can, too.

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Man up.

I would hazard a guess that any evil acts committed by Christians, on any widespread basis, were in fact, evil acts committed by a State in the name of the Christian religion. To the extent these evil acts were done, Christians have spent the past 5 or 600 hundred years in repentance for them.

Again, I see ZERO evidence of repentance from the Muslim community of faith for the horrific deeds done in the name of their religion. This is simply an undeniable truth.

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"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
Winston Churchill

And if it can be shown to you that the "Muslim community of faith" do not in fact condone the "horrific deads"... will you retract your statement?

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"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts

I fully understand the Muslim community, on balance, does not condone such actions. But their "protest" against such actions in mildly passive, even giving them the benefit of the doubt. Yet, it is hardly the example set forth by the reformers relative to abuses in Catholicism (which is the premise of this thread). The reformers were burned at the stake for voicing their protests. The reformers were proactive in voicing their protests. I simply see zero evidence of this in the so-called Islamic reformers.

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"Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
Winston Churchill

Perhaps, then, you should take the long view regarding Islam, and give them a few centuries to reform and repent, like we got.

Even you admit that's not true.

The fanatics will never repent. But that does not indict all or even most Muslims. And as Ted and I have pointed out to JP5 rather repeatedly, there have been plenty of Muslims who condemn the violence If you're not hearing it, you're not listening.

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Man up.

Oh yeah....right. What we need is more Almandejad types in all the Middle East.......vowing to "wipe Israel off the map" and seeking nuclear weapons to do it. I'd take Musharaff over him anyday.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007

The ones who condemn it are small in number. Pehaps they are afraid of being killed. Can you point out to me a protest AGAINST the Muslim violence by Muslims? It seems strange to me that they can get huge numbers out there to protest the POPE or "infidels." But nothing against their OWN bad guys.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007