but this:

As evidence mounts that Shiite police commandos are carrying out secret killings, Sunni Arab neighborhoods across Baghdad have begun forming citizen groups to keep the paramilitary forces out of their areas entirely. In large swaths of western Baghdad, and in at least six majority Sunni areas in its center, young men take turns standing in streets after the 11 p.m. curfew, to send out signals by flashlights and cellphones if strangers approach.

In some cases, the Sunnis have set up barricades and have taken up arms against Shiite-led commando raids into their neighborhoods. In other cases, residents have tipped off Sunni insurgents. Watch groups have been assembled in other mixed areas, including Baquba to the north and Mahmudiya to the south, residents and officials said.

Three years after the American invasion, the war has settled here, in the quiet of neighborhoods, streets and Iraqis' backyards. Dozens of bodies surface daily. People are taken from their homes and executed. Assassinations are routine. But instead of looking to the government for protection, ordinary Sunni Arabs are taking up arms against it, perhaps the most vivid illustration of the depth of Sunni mistrust of the American backed, Shiite-led security forces. "There is no bridge of confidence between the government and the Iraqi people," said Tarik al-Hashimy, a vice president of Iraq who is a Sunni Arab.

http://tinyurl.com/ogfzh

So much for the conservative myth that the problems are falling in Iraq

In March, the Baghdad morgue received 1,294 bodies, more than double the 596 received in March 2005. In April, the figure was up by 88 percent from the previous April. Nearly 90 percent died violently, most by gunfire, according to the morgue.

"The killing, you can't imagine the killing," said Yusra Abdul Aziz, 47, a teacher, whose block, in Adhamiya, organized its watch group in March, after four neighbors were shot dead over several days. "Without any reason. Cars come and shoot us. We run to the hospital and get our wounded. We live in a nightmare, actually."

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Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

Moonbats... ready to call it a civil war yet?

to everyone but the White House. As through out the war they are blundering, focusing on defeating Al Qaeda when the real problem has little to do these days with Al Qaeda. It could be gone tommorow and the problem would remain.

__________________
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away

__________________
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

[quote]Many Sunnis don't want us to leave Iraq. They know than when we leave the Shi'ite majority will begin a large-scale blood bath. We have been training the Shi'ites in the police and militias. It's been near impossible to recruit Sunni into the nascent "government's" enforcement arms.
The Sunnis are divided among themselves. The Shi'ite community is divided within itself. Even the Kurds are split.

The term "civil war' is politically incorrect and few in the media have the courage to use it. It is used openly in Iraq.
I doubt that Arabs are any more prone to revenge than non-Arabs.
That's because the strategic trend in the last few months is to withdraw troops into the super-bases under construction throughout our new colony. GIs no longer present many targets of opportunity. Our air power has been ratcheted up, however. Perhaps you've noticed an increase in casualty reporting in this respect?
I don't think that Al Qauda's presence in Iraq was all that great in the first place and now that the civil war is underway, Al Qaeda is becoming irrelevant to the Iraqi struggle for self-definition.

Well, I don't think Al'Quada was ever a big factor in Iraq.. I also remember that they recently faced some problems with the local groups, which might even futher diminish their significance..

Overall, it was mostly (Baathist?) Sunni groups, which waged the guerrilla war against Americans.. I could imagine that what we see now, is the Shiite government's reaction to this terrorism.. It is not only a revenge, but also a totalitarian method to eliminate the Sunni insurgents..

Overall, it was foolish from the Sunni groups to wage the guerrilla war against U.S and even more stupid move was to start the war against the Shiite groups.. U.S. is a safe target in such way, that it will not retaliate with extreme violence and cruelty.. The current Shiite reaction is somehow predictable and something, Sunni groups should have foreseen a time ago..

Somehow, this only testifies of the fundamental idiocy in the violence..

The only thing, the violence campaigns have managed to do, is that they have created a state, which is increasingly brutal and authoritarian.. Still, I'm not certain, if this is a bad thing.. If they have lost the liberty and any restrain on the state violence, they haven't yet lost the democracy and - with time - they might win the order.. Overall, I would agree with Bill Maher with the thing, that the order and security are still somehow more valuable than democracy and liberty.. The democratic process and the liberties have little value, if the state cannot enforce the democratic legistlation or guarantee one's basic freedom and rights..

- BtD

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"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."
[George Orwell, 1984]

What Mahre said was exactly the reason most Americans support a conservative view, ie; surveillance on international calls, and strong borders. Unlike the wacko lefty loons (ACLU) and those on this forum (noestsi).

He said, as what you posted, we are a nation of laws, something that our politicians forget, and we need to vote these people out. Democracy is only a fringe benefit. Those like noetsi pray for failure, just so they can say they were right, it is all about them you know.

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Cheney is the second executive officer to shoot someone in the face and chest. Clinton was the first.

DOUBLE POST

PLEASE - REMOVE ME!!

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"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."
[George Orwell, 1984]

Well, first Maher only wondered if Iraq was better under authoritarian rule than as a failed state with continuing violence.. So I was misquoting him..

Still, I stand behind my own opinion for very obvious reason..

One thing you should realize is that the democracy is build upon the law and the law is build upon the order.. Both democracy and law are just words on the paper, unless the state can maintain the order and the law..

In this way, it is not like we would ever decide between the order and democracy.. The latter cannot exist without the former.. The nation has be first brought under the state, then under the law - and only there after we can expect to build a real democracy - something more than an illusion or an empty word..

But of course, the Iraq is another case.. We do not face the options between a non-democratic state and a democratic non-state (,where I preferred the former).. The issue is the justification of the state violence, when facing violent groups.. This should be the essence of our debate.. This is not a question about democracy, but merely about conflict between the rights of the individual and the rights of the state under a crisis..

So, we have a choice between a state that can use extensive violence to bring order and a failed state, which is torn apart by organized violent groups.. For me, the problem is merely technical.. It is about, how to use force or a threat of force in the least destructive way possible to regain the control..

On the bottom line the state is a violence monopoly and one must not forget this fact in a naive idealism.. If a violent group break out of the control of state, it can only be brought under control throught the means of violence.. The state cannot exist without this control based on violence.. In the bottom line, state is order and order is state.. And without the state, neither the rule of law or democracy is possible..

Another question - certainly - is the nature of the state ~ so about whether it is a democracy or a non-democracy, whether it is a republic or authoritarian.. But this is wholly another debate and a rather boring one, since the history itself points us so clearly the right answers..

- BtD

__________________
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."
[George Orwell, 1984]

Aside the theorethical discussion, another question is that - in reality - what are the real consequnces of these Shi'ite death patrols.. It somehow appears, as an extreme state terrorist strategy..

I somehow don't like it, but I don't like the Iraqi situation overall.. It would be nice to view this as a sole reaction to the terrible security situation or a desperate act.. Still, I could also imagine it beeing a bloody vengenace for the occurred violence and the mosque bombing.. This all can further enflame the sectarian conflict..

Also, if this increased authoritarism of the state will remain as a trend, it does not predict good for the common Iraqians..

- BtD

__________________
"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."
[George Orwell, 1984]