I am still waiting for a factual rebuttal. The phrase "class warfare game" is an emotional response. I don't think it is a game. Webb overstated some numbers but what exactly did he say that is incorrect? Do you think he is inventing class resentment? Or reflecting something that already exists due to some very real structural inequities? Obviously, I believe the latter.

The evidence is clear over the last quarter century that the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is shrinking. This is true both when you examine absolute figures and relative buying power. Why is it that whenever someone brings the facts up for discussion, the JP5s of political discussion immediately accuse the speaker of class warfare.

Except for Lou Dobbs, who conveniently blames it all on illegal immigration somehow, it is pretty obvious that it is the richest of the rich that are getting almost all the benefit from these economic changes. I am not a Marxist or Marxian, but classes do exist. When the elite and/or their blinkered, unthinking, ideological parrots use the phrase CLASS WARFARE they are in fact correct. Where they err is that the richest part of American society is already effectively at war with the rest of America - and they are handily winning the battle!

The answer is not to have some sort of Marxist revolution, as the JP5s of this argument are implying, but rather to prevent this neo-aristocracy from gradually converting the rest of the American population into neo-serfs and neo-artisans. This was precisely what the United States of America was founded in revolt from - not something we should be progressing towards.

To JP5 and his soul-mates - go hang your heads in shame. You are traitors to your country and its constitution and its citizens.

The evidence is clear over the last quarter century that the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and the middle class is shrinking. This is true both when you examine absolute figures and relative buying power. Why is it that whenever someone brings the facts up for discussion, the JP5s of political discussion immediately accuse the speaker of class warfare.

Except for Lou Dobbs, who conveniently blames it all on illegal immigration somehow, it is pretty obvious that it is the richest of the rich that are getting almost all the benefit from these economic changes. I am not a Marxist or Marxian, but classes do exist. When the elite and/or their blinkered, unthinking, ideological parrots use the phrase CLASS WARFARE they are in fact correct. Where they err is that the richest part of American society is already effectively at war with the rest of America - and they are handily winning the battle!

The answer is not to have some sort of Marxist revolution, as the JP5s of this argument are implying, but rather to prevent this neo-aristocracy from gradually converting the rest of the American population into neo-serfs and neo-artisans. This was precisely what the United States of America was founded in revolt from - not something we should be progressing towards.

To JP5 and his soul-mates - go hang your heads in shame. You are traitors to your country and its constitution and its citizens.

Do you even know what poor is? Have you ever traveled to a country where there are TRULY poor people wandering around? It's amazing to me that some libs insist on portraying our country as really bad in this area when it simply is NOT the case. In case you are unaware, we live in a country where we go around and try to convince the homeless to come take advantage of FREE shelter and food. Since most of those who are homeless have drug addictions----our nation also provides program for them to get clean if they want to. There are jobs and training programs as well.

Did you know that in our country people who are considered in the "poor" category often own homes, have cars, and health insurance? Many have big screen tv's, etc. You don't know what poor is.

I've been rich and I've been poor. When I was poor, I didn't resent the rich. I admired their success. So, I worked hard, studied, put my husband through college, then he put me through college, and we eventually made it to the top---the category where we would be considered "rich" by many. We didn't suddenly change along the way and become "evil" because we achieved our goals and experienced success. I KNOW what our country offers to EVERYONE here......because I experienced it. I lived the American Dream. As a child of a carpenter, in a family of 5---I lived in a small frame house 1/2 block from a railroad. We had no central heat or air conditioning. We had one car that my Dad used to get back and forth to work. The rest of us walked where we needed to go. We had no health insurance. We shared clothes. When we got sick and had to see a doctor, my Dad paid it out on credit. Nobody in my family had ever been to college. No one in my husband's family had ever been to college. We didn't inherit money. We worked hard for everything we have. Today, I own a large, beautiful home and look out over a golf course in a beautiful neighborhood. We were able to retire early. We saved all our lives, when others were buying a new car every year. We followed the rules. And I resent that people like YOU and other LIBS consider me evil and someone to be condemned. I AM the Ameircan Dream. I love this country and do not appreciate others who live here badmouthing it! And from people who wouldn't know "poor" if it bit them on the butt.

__________________
"What exactly is this foreign policy experience?" Obama said mockingly of the New York senator. "Was she negotiating treaties? Was she handling crises? The answer is no."

NO MATTER WHAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES, ONLY 1/10TH OF ALL AMERICANS WILL BE IN THE TOP 10%!!! EVER!!! THE MIDDLE CLASS WILL ALWAYS BE THE MIDDLE CLASS!!! IT DOES NOT SHRINK!!! THE POOR ARE NOT FREAKING GETTING POORER!!!

__________________
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~Ronald Reagan

Most homeless people have drug addictions? Do you have a link to support this or does it make you feel better to trash those and make assumptions about those who don't have it as well as you? I think that most of these programs are good things. It's irritating when Republicans look to cut a few billion from these programs all while spending a few hundred billion on a senseless war that has been detrimental to our national security. But I digress.

No, I didn't know that. Perhaps because it's not true. The vast majority below the poverty line do not own cars or have health insurance. I don't know any with big screen TVs either. As far as transportation goes, a few do own an old beater. Now before you post a story from a right-wing website, note that I acknowledge that a few exceptions exist. Some who as a whole are not so bad off often fleece the system.

I think you need to study poverty in America. Most are not starving as in 3rd world nations but your view of them as a whole is way off.

I have a similar story but I do not share your belief that our society should be structured so that the rich reap all of the benefits of economic growth that most Americans contibute to. In other words, I don't believe in aristocracy.

How would you feel if I responded this way when you criticize progressive taxes, a minimum wage, government-sponsored programs for the homeless, or Democrats? "I love this country and do not appreciate others who live here badmouthing it!". JP5, you do not represent America. You represent a portion of America, as do I. Don't wrap yourself around the flag. The flag is not yours. It's ours. It belongs to ALL Americans.

Didn't say it was just mine. But I DO appreciate my country and all that it has afforded me. IMHO, America is the best country in the world. And I'm proud to say it. Our system of capitalism works and it afford people who came from a background like me to get ahead. You, on the other hand, continue think our country only cares about the rich and no one else. I've told you that I am a perfect example of how that's not true. I get rather sick of the pitting of the rich against the poor by the Democrats. The RICH pay MOST of the federal income taxes in this country and they shouldn't be blasted for it. They should be appreciated for it.

__________________
"What exactly is this foreign policy experience?" Obama said mockingly of the New York senator. "Was she negotiating treaties? Was she handling crises? The answer is no."

[quote="The12thMan";p="313463"]if you say so! I was looking for some actual evidence. You seem to find Webb's evidence completely unpalatable for personal reasons.

You appear to be convinced that percentiles are something other than arbitrary. So are most differences in class. But I'll tell you now, if this nation gets broken down into ridh and poor... nobody's going to give a $%#@ what the percentiles are.
Percentiles are not all that scientifically valid either. What if it breaks down so that a multi-millionaire is in the middle class... because there isn't enough room in the upper class? Is he truly middle class even though he has and makes several times more than the next person down?
That's why multiple types of statistics are used, not just one. They all have flaws.

One that sticks out: The mean income has been going up... The median income has remained static.
Think about what that means.
Somebody's getting richer... enough that the average of everyone is moving up... but the guy in the middle has not gone up or down.
It could be that every poor person is getting significantly richer... maybe. It takes a lot of freaking poor people to have the impact of one super-rich person. And we know the rich are getting richer from other statistics.
So yes the rich are getting richer. The middle class are not. Are the poor? Doubtful. I know a lot of people who work their @$$es off for under 20k a year (sometimes with multiple jobs). I know people stuck on social security aren't seeing any new wealth. Perhaps there are more people working than on welfare... So the working poor number has jumped and the welfare recipients down? Maybe. But the gap between those groups has never matched the one between the middle class and the rich.
And this is just income. Property is much more interesting. Anybody remember which percentage of the population owns 50% of the property? I believe it's ten... but it might be five.

Yes, the middle class can shrink because it's not completely based on percentiles. If a percentile contains both a multi-millionaire and a guy making 100k... it's obviously a BS criterion.
The fact is if the number of multimillionaires grows slowly and the number of people making under 20k grows quickly, in real value... not simply the value of this much money now... then the number of people in the middle are shrinking.
Without the middle, the poor and the rich have no buffer. Either the rich will appease the poor or oppress them with little interference from the middle class who will likely identify with one or the other if disparity continues to grow...

If you don't think income disparity matters, take a look to the third world. Mexico for an instance. Sure it's a democracy... but how much of one? Corruption rampant. Violence rampant. And class warfare insane!
If this trend does not stop... we might be the first to see what happens to an established democracy when one of the prerequisites for a stable democracy disappears out from under it.
But most likely we'll nip it in the bud because the middle class will figure it out before it's too late and we are still a democracy.

But what the main purpose of all this dialogue is is to help people understand why all this talk of a stronger stockmarket and a thriving economy doesn't really mean anything if a large chunk of people aren't sharing in it.

__________________
That information is classified and to be given only on a need-to-know basis...

And I do not need to know.