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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 09:40 AM
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Default ?????????

But artificial insemination in a lesbian does occur... and it's even possible fo her partner to act as another parent. Unless you're suggesting that adopted parents are not really parents and parentage is based purely on genes.
I really don't follow the whole nature argument.
Either something is possible or it's not. Regardless of whether nature "intended" it.
I don't see any validity to nature-based arguments. Nature has nothing to do with morality... and apparently not much to do with potential.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:05 AM
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Default Against the best interest of mankind

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Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
But artificial insemination in a lesbian does occur... and it's even possible for her partner to act as another parent. Unless you're suggesting that adopted parents are not really parents and parentage is based purely on genes.
I really don't follow the whole nature argument.
Either something is possible or it's not. Regardless of whether nature "intended" it.
I don't see any validity to nature-based arguments. Nature has nothing to do with morality... and apparently not much to do with potential.
Neither do I. Just because science can do something doesn't mean it is "natural". Remember 6 million Jews were killed with gas - everything created from "nature". But just because it can be done, does not make it morally right. If you used that argument in all cases, no crime, no abuse, nothing would be morally wrong. And that is simply not logical.

There is no shortage of babies in this world, and they were all made the same way babies have been made for millions of years. Frankly, allowing a lesbian to be artificially inseminated seem to be unethical. Nature has a system for correcting mistakes that are created by accident. I see no purpose in allowing defective humans to propagate by unnatural means.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hobo";p=&quot View Post
There is no shortage of babies in this world, and they were all made the same way babies have been made for millions of years. Frankly, allowing a lesbian to be artificially inseminated seem to be unethical. Nature has a system for correcting mistakes that are created by accident. I see no purpose in allowing defective humans to propagate by unnatural means.
I see your point, but by the same measure, I see no harm in allowing them to. Especially since the "defect" in question is simply sexual orientation and not some kind of mental or physical defect that actually keeps a human being from operating.
I don't understand why any human couple that can't propogate should have artificial insemination rather than adopting a child that needs a home and parents... But if we draw that line, it should not apply only to gay couples but for all who require artificial means to reproduce.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:46 AM
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Default not true

Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
But artificial insemination in a lesbian does occur... and it's even possible fo her partner to act as another parent. Unless you're suggesting that adopted parents are not really parents and parentage is based purely on genes.
I really don't follow the whole nature argument.
Either something is possible or it's not. Regardless of whether nature "intended" it.
I don't see any validity to nature-based arguments. Nature has nothing to do with morality... and apparently not much to do with potential.
artificial insemination does not occur from one lesbian to the next. One lesbian can not produce sperm to impregnate her partner. They need a male to enter the picture. Two females can not create a pregnancy. That's the point, two women getting pregnant is impossible without a male. Thus unnatural.
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All you need to know about the energy crisis:
ANWR Exploration Republicans: 91% Supported. Democrats: 86% Opposed.
Coal-to-liquid R's: 90% YES. D's: 78% NO.
Oil Shale Exploration R's: 90% YES. D's: 86% NO.
Outer Continental Shelf Exploration R's: 81% YES. D's: 83% NO.
Increased Refinery Capacity R's: 97% YES. D's: 96% NO

SUMMARY: 91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of America’s own oil and gas. 86% of House Democrats have historically voted against.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:49 AM
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Default artificial insemination is not itself unnatural

Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobo";p=&quot View Post
There is no shortage of babies in this world, and they were all made the same way babies have been made for millions of years. Frankly, allowing a lesbian to be artificially inseminated seem to be unethical. Nature has a system for correcting mistakes that are created by accident. I see no purpose in allowing defective humans to propagate by unnatural means.
I see your point, but by the same measure, I see no harm in allowing them to. Especially since the "defect" in question is simply sexual orientation and not some kind of mental or physical defect that actually keeps a human being from operating.
I don't understand why any human couple that can't propogate should have artificial insemination rather than adopting a child that needs a home and parents... But if we draw that line, it should not apply only to gay couples but for all who require artificial means to reproduce.
It is not doing anything that nature does not do every day on its own. However, doing so with lesbians does do something that nature has never in the history of the world done.
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All you need to know about the energy crisis:
ANWR Exploration Republicans: 91% Supported. Democrats: 86% Opposed.
Coal-to-liquid R's: 90% YES. D's: 78% NO.
Oil Shale Exploration R's: 90% YES. D's: 86% NO.
Outer Continental Shelf Exploration R's: 81% YES. D's: 83% NO.
Increased Refinery Capacity R's: 97% YES. D's: 96% NO

SUMMARY: 91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of America’s own oil and gas. 86% of House Democrats have historically voted against.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 10:53 AM
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Default how about medical advances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellion";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
But artificial insemination in a lesbian does occur... and it's even possible fo her partner to act as another parent. Unless you're suggesting that adopted parents are not really parents and parentage is based purely on genes.
I really don't follow the whole nature argument.
Either something is possible or it's not. Regardless of whether nature "intended" it.
I don't see any validity to nature-based arguments. Nature has nothing to do with morality... and apparently not much to do with potential.
artificial insemination does not occur from one lesbian to the next. One lesbian can not produce sperm to impregnate her partner. They need a male to enter the picture. Two females can not create a pregnancy. That's the point, two women getting pregnant is impossible without a male. Thus unnatural.
pacemakers, immunization shots, transplants even going around in a wheelchair. Those are "unnatural" also.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellion";p=&quot View Post
It is not doing anything that nature does not do every day on its own. However, doing so with lesbians does do something that nature has never in the history of the world done.
What are you talking about? A lesbian can get pregnant just as a woman with a husband who cannot get someone pregnant can. It is equally possible.

Are you claiming parenting units have to mimic the nature of a couple that physically could have a kid? That could be your philosophy but it's more like pagan nature-worship rationalization than anything approaching science.

Humans capable of reproduction can reproduce. Any human can adopt. People can reproduce and one taking part can give up parental rights and someone else can take over those rights.
As far as the marraige and parenting models of society being natural? Doubtful. They're convenient social constructions. Men are naturally promiscuous creatures and prior to modern civilization children were raised communally. Nobody seems to be suggesting a return to that kind of nature.
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 12:10 PM
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Default no she can't

Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellion";p=&quot View Post
It is not doing anything that nature does not do every day on its own. However, doing so with lesbians does do something that nature has never in the history of the world done.
What are you talking about? A lesbian can get pregnant just as a woman with a husband who cannot get someone pregnant can. It is equally possible.
A lesbian can not get pregnant from another woman...no man can impregnate another man. However men impregnate women all the time. One occurs naturally all the time the other does not.
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All you need to know about the energy crisis:
ANWR Exploration Republicans: 91% Supported. Democrats: 86% Opposed.
Coal-to-liquid R's: 90% YES. D's: 78% NO.
Oil Shale Exploration R's: 90% YES. D's: 86% NO.
Outer Continental Shelf Exploration R's: 81% YES. D's: 83% NO.
Increased Refinery Capacity R's: 97% YES. D's: 96% NO

SUMMARY: 91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of America’s own oil and gas. 86% of House Democrats have historically voted against.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 12:23 PM
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A lesbian can not get pregnant from another woman...no man can impregnate another man. However men impregnate women all the time. One occurs naturally all the time the other does not.
Giving birth to children and raising them are two completely seperate phenomena.
The woman is still technically made pregnant by a man, as is any woman who is artificially inseminated.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2006, 01:47 PM
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Default I had another look and I had a cup of tea and a butter pie

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Originally Posted by JavaBlack";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellion";p=&quot View Post
A lesbian can not get pregnant from another woman...no man can impregnate another man. However men impregnate women all the time. One occurs naturally all the time the other does not.
Giving birth to children and raising them are two completely seperate phenomena.
The woman is still technically made pregnant by a man, as is any woman who is artificially inseminated.
They shouldn't be...we don't need a country where we run baby factories. As much as possible babies should be raised by the parents. But the bottom line is one action (women being inseminated by men) is nothing more than correcting a defect, illness, etc and replicating something that happens every day in nature. The other is replicating something that never happens. That being making same sex parents. There are no same sex parents in nature because that isn't how parenthood was intended.
__________________
All you need to know about the energy crisis:
ANWR Exploration Republicans: 91% Supported. Democrats: 86% Opposed.
Coal-to-liquid R's: 90% YES. D's: 78% NO.
Oil Shale Exploration R's: 90% YES. D's: 86% NO.
Outer Continental Shelf Exploration R's: 81% YES. D's: 83% NO.
Increased Refinery Capacity R's: 97% YES. D's: 96% NO

SUMMARY: 91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of America’s own oil and gas. 86% of House Democrats have historically voted against.
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