So we should march on indefinitely towards completing our mission regardless of the cost? There comes a point where the costs of war outweigh the benefits of potentially achieving an unlikely victory. The Dems think that point is in 1.5 years. Its not surrendering, it is simply high stakes cost/benefit analysis.

1) Stable Government?
Iraq has a Government.
Don't you mean a stable military?
Again, Iraq has had 4 full years to recruit Iraqi men for their own Army.
Not many Iraqi men seem to be willing to join to defend their own country.

2) Agreements favourable to the USA?
Why do they need such an agreement with the USA?
There were other countries that helped "liberate them.
I guess Iraq doesn't need an agreement with Britain or Japan.
They just need an agreement favourable to the USA only.
Now that you said that Iraq is a free democratic country,
What if they chose to trade with Iran or another Middle Eastern Country?
Is Iraq only a free country as long as they are trading favourably with the USA?

Last time I looked, Iraq was an independent country.
They can sell their oil to any country they want.
There was no agreement before the war that stated that the USA will liberate your country but only if you give us a favourable agreement before we leave.
The USA went into the country without the world or the Iraqi support.
Why should Iraq give the USA an oil agreement.
Gee I thought the USA did it out of the goodness of their heart to free oppressed people and give them a free country.

Sounds to me like your #2 confirmed the reason the USA went to war to begin with.

Your selfish logic for putting a "Favourable agreement" into the mix sounds as sick as a guy saving a woman from a rapist but then asking her for sex before he leaves.

Either the war in Iraq was for Humanitarian and Justice reasons, which requires no oil agreement
or
the war was for selfish American reasons just to get control of Iraq's oil.

Which is it?

Yes, the USA has spent Billions on this war.
But it was YOUR Choice.

Again, a guy gets stabbed while saving a woman from a rapist; do you ask the woman to paid the guy's hospital bill to get stitched up.
What if the guy dies while saving the woman, does the family expect the woman to pay for the guys funeral and support his family for the rest of her life?
Americans gave Bush a blank cheque every year of this war.
America has made the choice on their own to go to war.

It was not to save Iraq from a dictator.
If it was, the USA would have removed Saddam over 15 years ago when the world learned of the Mass Murders Saddam committed.
The USA knew all of Saddam crimes from the first day Saddam took over Iraq.
Saddam was an Alley to the USA when it suited the USA during their conflict with Iran.
Look at the historical time lines. American looked the other way while Saddam committed those crimes.
It wasn't until Saddam turned his back on the States that he became an enemy of the USA.
Iran has always been an enemy of the States. Iran commits mass murders within its country but the USA never went in to "liberate that country."
Iran took 50 American hostages and the States never went to liberate that country. Back then they had Saddam's support to go up against Iran.

Even if the states get an agreement and leave, if the government changes their mine or is overthrown, does that mean the USA will return to occupy the country again?

3) Military Bases?
Again, it's been 4 years.
You said only a "couple of bases."
How long does it take to establish a couple of bases?

Do you really think a couple of bases will secure a country that is in the middle of a civil war?
Do you really think any type of military bases will prevent terrorist from setting up camps in Iraq if they was to?
Before the war, Saddam had at least a strong enough military to at least have some reasonable defense system.
This war has wiped out Iraq's total military and now you expect Iraqi men to sign up when the terrorists and Iran is much stronger now.

Like I said, the USA might as well claim Iraq for themselves, move a large part of their own military over there and set up 3 new American States.
51st, 52nd and 53rd state.
What really gets me is that the Almighty USA did not send enough soldiers into Iraq to get the job done in the last 4 years.
The excuse is that the USA didn't want to make it look like they were "occupying Iraq."

LOL not willing to leave without a Favourable Agreement" sounds like Occupying to me.

history is against you

occupation of germany ... our troops and bases remain there -since '45
occupation of japan ... our troops and bases remain there - since '45
occupation of south korea ... less settled political situation than the two above and our troops/bases are still there - since '53

you may not like the benchmarks joker has proffered, but that does not make them less legitimate. we broke it, we own it

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“Mayor Palin fails to have a firm grasp of something very simple: the truth.”

[Frontiersman editorial, 2/7/97]

Question.
Did it take over 4 years to set up those bases?
With the mighty USA Military, how hard is it really to set up a couple of Bases in Iraq?
Some say the military is stretched thin others say the USA can start another war some place else if they needed too.

If they are not stretch thin, how hard is it to set up a couple of bases.

More important question.
Do the Iraqi people really want permanent USA in their country?

"We Broke it, We Own It?"

Like I said, just turn Iraq into the 3 new US states.

You mentioned 3 countries that were not in the middle of a 3-way civil war.
I think Iraq if totally different.

Korea and German split the country agreeably and were not in civil wars.
Germany built a wall.
Korea split North and South.
The USA picked one side in both cases.
The USA did not Occupy the country until all the people agreed with the USA "Favourable Agreements."
Each country had a strong military already in place.
If I'm not mistaken, the USA did not go into those countries without the world's support.
Other countries were actively involved in those wars.
The USA was not basically alone calling the shots in those countries like they are in Iraq.
If we are going to give history lessons, let's compare apples to apples.

Japan was never if a civil war amongst their own people.

What about the other 2 "benchmarks?"

Opps. I forgot to add "stable pro-US government."

I think a stable military would be part of a stable government.

And you think we should walk right now and leave them in this condition during a civil war?

I said a favorable contract, not an exclusive one. They can trade with whoever they want. We just want a really good deal.

I like you. You're one of the good ones.

Now you're starting to get it.

Hmmm...I'll have to remember that next time a save a woman from being raped.

Don't get me wrong. I think you're confusing US goals with my goals. Don't worry; I often confuse myself. Anyway, I don't necessarily support these goals; I just think these are America's goals.

Why couldn't it be both? Why can't our goals be to remove an oppressive dictator and get favorable trade deals for their oil?


I hear ya. It's all screwed up, isn't it?

I'm talking about permenant military bases. That's pretty much routine for the US. We win a war, we set up military bases. We have two in Japan, and at least one in South Korea and Germany. I have no doubt we will set up at least one in Iraq.

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LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE!!!

Everyone's opinion is biased. To accuse JP5 of having an unfair biased opinion only illustrates your opposition under the guise that you are more wise than he is. Also, it's a complete falsehood to claim all the presidential candidates are against the war. Only a few of the Republican cadidates are still against the war and have no chance of getting the party nomination. Mark this as fact, the republican to get the nomination will support the war and not defeat.

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I'll never Forget. To pull You Closer is to Pull You Down. Ignorence can be an envy. Applaud us as the old American Power goes quietly into the night.

This is really bad and something that has never happened in History. Unspecifically, this clearly mounts the evidence that this country has lost its spine. Yesterday was a dark day in American history but there is a little light about it [very little]. The Bill still has to pass the senate and be signed into law by the President. However, As you probably know, the funding of the Armed forces is not something perpetuated indefinitely in any large scale way. There's an annual routine Law that must be made to define and enforce the appropriated funds to the military by the authority of Congress. What this means is if Bush does not sign it and veto it (which he most certainly will), the armed forces will not have the appropriation of funds until a bill is finally passed. This means the Armed Forces can potentially run out of money. As a matter of fact, a report I read stated the Armed Forces budget is due to expire within a little more than a month. Of course this was already thought out by the Democrats to make this a win-win situation for them, politically. This Bill was also passed decieftully. In truth, the Dumocrats did not have the necessary votes for the Bill to pass. There were some Congressmen whom are anonymous as of now (3/24/07) that refused to support the Bill. They finally agreed when there was a decision to write in the Bill the approval of specific district funds those Congressman men supported or ran on. It was because of this the Bill passed and it perfectly illustrates the Despicable, selfish, incompetence in the Political theater today. When the Armed Forces learned about this Bill's passing, there was outrage and emotional shock. An Active Duty Captain in the US Army called up Mark Levin's Radio Program almost crying and demanded if Levin knew who these Congressmen were to tell him. As I wrote, the public does not know this to my knowledge right now. But this was an absolute abomination and I spit on those God(*)(*)(*)(*) Congressmen who took advantage of their election to redefine their duty and undermine this country's actual continuing fight for survival.

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I'll never Forget. To pull You Closer is to Pull You Down. Ignorence can be an envy. Applaud us as the old American Power goes quietly into the night.

Like I've been observing, J, this is a war with America on one side, versus terrorists and Democrats on the other. This bill will never see the light of day, and the Democrats know it..........they just wanted to show their support for the terrorists, letting them know they're still in their corner working for America's defeat. Message received, I'm sure.

Point one the US is not nor ever has been the whole of America.

Point two How many Democrats have been placing IEDs and killing coalition forces in Iraq? I don't recall seeing that in the news.

Point three Republicans/Neo-cons are not the only representatives of the US. Or don't you believe in Democracy?

If we decide the war is too costly, we should give up and pull out immediately, not spending another year and a half making it even costlier.

An end date only tells the enemy how long they have to hold out before we give up.

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LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE!!!