So, I've been checking out this "support the troops" rally that just took place in Weaselton, they're showing it on C-SPAN right now.

This stuff is too much, I mean, these are the "right wing nut jobs" that roughly equate with the "loony lefties" on the left.

These guys are like, anyone who says anything bad about the troops is a freakin' traitor, and none of those alleged atrocities ever happened, and "hooray Michelle Malkin", and like that....

And I mean, these guys appear to be quite delusional. They don't seem to be familiar with the concept that "war is hell" - I mean, that's why it's called WAR, f'r cryin' out loud....

People get wierd. They do strange stuff. They trample on boundaries they'd never thought they'd cross. They're under so much pressure, they have to "let off steam" in unusual ways sometimes.....

All that is real. Trying to pretend like it doesn't exist is just stupid. Go ask anyone who's actually served, like in Vietnam or something - war is hell. People do strange stuff. All that stuff is not only plausible, I'd be entirely surprised if there's not "more" of it, that they've somehow managed to cover up or deal with internally or whatever.

Realism is what I want, people - not these dumb freakin' platitudes, like "anyone who says anything bad about A member of the armed forces should just leave the freakin' country, 'cause they're a freakin' traitor".

Give me the real stuff. The real truth. And don't be stupid enough to try to deny it when it's staring you right in the face. That would put you right up there with the Pope who tried to burn Copernicus at the stake.

On a brighter note, the Helmet Project has now succeeded in making the upgraded helmets part of the Army's standard issue - so kudos to them, "they done a good thing", and the rest of those people are just too stupid to even comment on....

Islamofascism is REAL.

That the scumbags in Guantanamo would gladly slice you from ear to ear, given the chance, is REAL.

9-11 was REAL.

Iranian nuke bomb development is REAL.

Al qaeda is REAL.

Yes, all true. So, in that context, a few atrocities are probably a very low price to pay - I mean, right? I'm okay with that, are you?

But I mean, that's kinda the point, right? I'm okay with that - like, you don't need to try to "sell" me on that - you don't need to start talking about Bushie in the same breath as the troops, 'cause those are two very different things. You don't have to call me a traitor just 'cause I'm pointing out that there will be the occasional atrocity in war -

But the secondary point is, that these right-wing nut jobs are trying to deny it. They're like, "oh no, that stuff never happens". Yeah, right.

You know, I would like to believe that American troops could be held to a higher ethical and moral standard than other countries' troops - I mean, that way, people would kinda look up to us, right?

But at the end of the day, I don't think that "human nature" in America is much different from "human nature" in Iraq or Paraguay or Upper Slobovia, do you?

So yeah, I know what's real - and that's the whole point - I know what's real - I've seen it first-hand with my very own eyes, which is why these wing-nuts (*)(*)(*)(*) me off every bit as much as Move-On did with the Petraeus thing.

Dig?

I'm sorry but you aren't going to scare me or many other Americans with your fear mongering, even with bold letters.

Our troops are held to a higher standard. Those soldiers who put underwear on Iraqi's heads are now in prison. We have highly disciplined troops that are held to a higher standard than other nations and they achieve it.

Playing the "you don't support the troops" card seems to be a common theme lately. If your opinion differs from a vet, that makes you unpatriotic. At the anti-war rally, we were approached several times with this situation. When we pointed out that some members of our group were vets......silence. Are they trying to say the the opinions of pro-war vets supercede American citizens opinions?

__________________
I've been informed....don't blame Bush, he's "not in control"
That must make him out of control

Hopefully I can weigh in on this one, first let me say this, the military is not personality-wise very different from the rest of the country. It has a cross-section of many different personalities. The one thing that you count on is that each individual soldier remembers their training and ALWAYS conduct themselves in a professional manner. For those that do not, the US Military has several avenues of discipline for the individual that acts in a unbecoming manner as seen with the Abu Ghraib incident and a few others. However, these are isolated incidents and DO NOT represent the US Military as a whole which conduct themselves in a professional manner and are worthy of all the praise that they can be given for a job they are performing I might add extremely well given the operating conditions and environment.

As for being unpatriotic to support combat forces deployed overseas protecting the very freedoms you enjoy. That's not for me to make that decision for you, but I would be the first to tell you that I and many like me defended this country so you could exercise those freedoms even though I don't agree with them and in some cases find them just plain sad.

Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." -- Tom Paine

Yep. Thanks for weighing in, TBD - you sound very reasonable.

Hmm... I should probably qualify the "I'm okay with that" bit - 'cause I'm probably okay with it "at a certain level" - mmm.... let me try to explain.

Let see - as you say, individual sometimes forget their training and discipline and so on - they're under pressure and they crack - whatever - but I kinda expect that from the "grunts", know what I mean? They're usually "fresh", maybe they've had some basic training and a little bit of specialty, and they haven't been around as much as, say, a colonel or even a general.

Those latter folks, are the people I'm most concerned about - because those are the people whom we'd expect to have the "highest" levels of discipline and standards of conduct, right?

But what sometimes happens, is that these mid-level guys manage to cover everything up, then find some poor grunt to use as a fall guy to take all the blame, and maybe a high-level head will roll for political reasons, and the "real" culprits get away scot-free. This too, happens in the military....

Yeah, you're absolutely right, I mean, in one sense, the mil is no different from a corporation that expects its employees to maintain high ethical standards and refrain from questionable behavior - but they're always nailing these guys for crossing those boundaries, right? I mean, it happens every day.

And yeah - the military is under "civilian control", right? I mean, the troops may be freakin' perfect in every way, and still they can cause big trouble for the country if their "mission" is counterproductive - I mean, especially if they're successful, right?

So, yeah man - have you been to Switzerland lately? Seen the MP's at the airport? I've watched those guys, dude - I've watched 'em very closely. They've very good. Very vigilant. I usually don't see that kind of thing till I get to "colonel-level" in the US Army.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I love our mil, I'm just trying to share a different perspective (or two) - actually in this particular thread, I was kinda wondering if anyone would come back and harp on the "right wing nut-job" bit, but so far you guys are being very good and sticking to the issue - I'm impressed. Thumbs up!

Seriously -

...and Americans in general doesn't have a "cross-section of many different personalities?I don't think anything can be "ALWAYS" but I'm sure for the most part, they do.See, you just contradicted yourself, it isn't always. Amen to that.

Not supporting a policy does not mean a person does not support the troops. Two soldiers that we're war critics, we're recently killed in Iraq. Even though they didn't support the policy, I'm sure they supported the troops. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3594058&page=1 Well, I appreciate my freedoms and I'm sure you appreciate your freedoms and many vets don't see my view as "sad" but actually support it. I'm sure as time goes by and there is no end in sight, more of the military will question the current policy and since we are ALL Americans first, we can agree to disagree.

__________________
I've been informed....don't blame Bush, he's "not in control"
That must make him out of control

THe issue was what is real. You don't think those things are real? If you are scared by reality, that's your problem, but don't presume to speak for americans, the vast majority of whom ARE in contact with reality.