There is no such thing as "success" in Iraq. There is only "less failure".

Several neocons have been on here posting about the lower violence in Iraq. That is a good thing. Although the right wing hate mongers make straw man arguements that the left want failure and death, that has never been the case. It is a good thing that Iraq is moving forward.

What the radical right seems ignorant of, is that a war based upon lies is wrong, and can never be a success. As an analogy, suppose I burn your house down, kill one of your children in the fire, and then re-build your house. Is that a success? We started a war based upon information that was wrong. We killed tens of thousands of people. We killed thousands of American troops. We borrowed hundreds of billions of dollars to finance our war mongering. Even if Iraq emerges from this as a model of democracy in the middle east, that does not retroactively make the neocons any less of a pack of murderous war mongers. And BTW, Iraq still has a long way to go before it could be considered anything close to a model of democracy for the middle east.

Also ignored is the fact that the lower violence we are seeing in Iraq is a result of Iraq taking care of their own business. Fostering a dependence on the US troops is not a new way forward. Obviously we will never be able to see what "would have happened" if the US planned an orderly withdrawl over a year ago. We do know that the Sunni leaders were already turning on the islamic radicals before the "surge" even started. So it is certainly reasonable to believe that this decrease in violence that has occured would have occured anyway.

All the progress in Iraq is because of internal progress in Iraq. That progress has been slow in coming, and argueably delayed in coming by the presence of a large external occupying force.

I think that everyone knows and has known that Iraq will eventually "stabilize". The only question really has been if that should be left to the Iraqis to do, or if a large external military force helps or hinders the situation. The progress that is occuring in Iraq can be debated if it is because of, or in spite of, the surge in US troops. But no matter what the future holds in Iraq, there is no way that a war of choice and an exercise in nation building can be called a success, it can only be called less of a failure.

Exactly my feelings on this. Well said.

on many points we agree. the bases for war were suspect at best - very possibly criminal by design. the military action was won years ago and now the peace must be achieved internally.
but if the alternative to remaining in iraq is to immediately withdraw, then exercising that retreat option would likely produce results which will have negative consequences for generations to come (from an American's perspective).
petraeus distinguished himself early by the woefully inadequate training of the new iraqi army. but just as they are catching on, so it seems, is he. the native population is beginning to become responsible for its own security. our military presence is needed there until it is found that the iraqi army and police are adequate to maintain order for the population and the government.
what is more alarming to me is that we have simultaneously implemented a standard of political corruption, where any political action taken is only the result of substantial cash changing hands. now we have that neocon favorite (and iranian spy and jordanian criminal) chalabi in charge of constructing public works. before that he was in charge of the oil revenues and before that he was telling the white house that iraqis would welcome the American occupation forces with open arms ... maybe he meant open armament.
that a corrupt American regime would foster a corrupt iraqi politic is not surprising. hopefully, we will soon elect an administration that has the competence and political will to right those wrongs wrought by the bushtapo. abandoning that country now will forego the opportunity to assure that a repressive iran-like radical islamic government is not soon formed.

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Originally Posted by Bushfan http://www.politicalforum.com/images...s/viewpost.gif Pelosi calls Mr. Bush a Failure in Eeverything. You just can't hide a public eduation.

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Originally Posted by Rusticus Rove is s the slime on which this whole administration slid.

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Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha And spending money is nothing more than another form of voting.

as ive said many times before, its just saving face.

the bushmen dont get it though. their denial is the only thing that keeps their little heads from exploding.

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I suppose sooner or later, once Bush's legacy has become truly monstrous, the number of his supporters will mysteriously vanish.

Kind of the way that nobody ever says they hated Martin Luther King. But, oh, they did; they did hate him. Despised him absolutely. Tens of millions of Americans.

All silent. Embarassed, I assume (and hope).

you give the bushies more credit than i do.

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Ha! Well, maybe you're right.....

Here is another article that says it pretty well:

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/20...q_daalder.aspx

I'll be in the history books... right after high school's make the Da Vinci Code a part of English curriculum.

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Believing that McAfee is going to protect you from hackers and viruses is exactly like believing that republicans can actually protect you from terrorists.

When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die.

The appeaser frenzied desire for defeat has caused them to have a final detachment from reality.

Wait - which is it - "less failure" or "moving forward"??

Appeasers have never proved a lie.


What if I bend over, and fart in your face is that success? What the devil are you talking about??

Which is it - wrong information, or a lie? Come up with one rant and stick to it.

People get killed in war? Who woulda thunk.

We killed our own troops?

In middle east terms, Iraq is like the British parliament.

What the devil does that mean ?

Enough - the appeaser rants on iraq become ever more weird, ever more surrealistic, ever more incoherent.

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Blade: "more educated and literate people than Justabubba"

Justabubba: "that would include everyone"

http://politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=27847