Bingo. See, your model, takes into account "people-to-people" interactions, correct? But, it doesn't necessarily speak to "people-to-society" interactions in the same way - in your model, those latter interactions, "drop out of", the former (logically), right? So, the "stupid people" example, is kind of this idea of not "force against a person", but "force against the entity of society".

See? Yep - that's it. It's a challenge on the "scope" of the model.

Understood. Yes, we don't want to "create" stupid people. Nevertheless, they exist, yes? So, you're kinda saying we shouldn't "support them", but I mean, sometimes we kinda "have to", right? Or... I mean, tha alternative would be kinda inhumane, wouldn't it?

Well, I mean - yeah, I was kinda thinking about the guy that "simply will not listen" - right? He has NO interest in listening, to anyone or anything. And I mean, that kind of a guy, might be "dangerous" at some point, so, you know, tell him to "get out of the way", and he'll say "screw you" just 'cause he can, you know, just 'cause he "can" be uncooperative - just 'cause it's his "right" to be a complete idiot.

So, I guess the point there, is the guy is "completely within his rights", according to your model, yes? Until he tramples on someone else's? But I mean, if he's gonna sit there and "not move" when a cop tells him to do something, he's just being a dummy, and then he gets charged with a crime, right? "Obstruction of justice" - "crime against the State".

In your model, is there such a thing as "crime against the State"? And if so, how does it develop?

I don't think I'm totally following you here, but if you mean can someone commit a crime against "society" - technically "yes" since society is nothing more than a group of individuals. But again, it must involve some form of force, fraud or coercion.


Well, we should support those who need help and cannot support themselves. But we should not support those who can support themselves, but yet refuse to do so. In the example I gave, those young men were fully capable of working a job. They should not be on welfare for doing poorly in school. Most true welfare could be handled privately, as was done with the fraternal orders before the welfare state. Such groups could also oversee job placement, etc.

They might - but then they would be arrested and end up in prison if they resorted to force, fraud or coercion. Since they would have an opportunity to work tax free, and no one would be exerting any control over their peaceful, honest, voluntary activities - they have the best possible incentive to stay out of trouble.

Well, what do you mean by just "sit there"? If he just sits in the middle of the road, then he's endangering other lives and using the threat of his being killed as a means to coerce others into altering their right to travel freeing. So, yes, he can be arrested in that case.

Things like "obstruction of justice" will still exist, because there must be a procedure for arresting/incarcerating/etc. people who commit force/fraud/coercion crimes. And people must be presumed innocent, etc.

Well, the crime is not actually against the state - as I see it - the crime is against the procedure of justice. The government will have to make the rules for such, again, to presume innocence and to protect the rights of the accused at every level. The current procedures would do - but the legal system should be greatly simplified and we need greater punishments for judges or law enforcement officials who misuse their office or who commit crimes. But by taking away their authority over peaceful, honest, voluntary activities, the damage their corruption could do would be greatly limited.

Also, focusing more on restitution, as detailed here, would put the justice system back on the right track again.

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

This is by Dr. Ken Mato
Former Congressional Candidate, 6th District N.J.

Did You Ever Wonder Why The National Debt Keeps Going Up and Up?

One of the most ungodly and fraudulent institutions ever perpetrated on the American people and the world, is the Federal Reserve System which through deceit became the central bank of the United States in 1913. The idea came about on a meeting in Jekyl Island off the coast of Georgia in 1910. The bankers in this country, especially J.P. Morgan, created a currency panic in 1907 in order to get the American people to accept the idea of a central bank. A central bank already existed in England from as far back as 1694. The Rothschilds completely dominate the banking system. It is estimated their wealth goes into the trillions.

Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild boasted:

• "I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply."

The idea of a central bank is to so enslave the people of the country to a debt money system that you continue to collect taxes continuously which just covers the interest. The duped people of the United States are paying about $300 billion dollars per year to the IRS which is the collection agency for the Federal Reserve. By the way, the Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank with 10 private members. The Chase Manhattan Bank is a member which is owned by the Rockefellers who are Rothschild Agents. I will list the ten member banks at the end of this article..

The citizens of the United States falsely owe these devils about 6.5 trillion dollars. Have you ever wondered WHO HAS THAT MUCH MONEY TO LOAN TO THE UNITED STATES?

History of Lies

During the time of the Babylonian captivity of Judah, a man named Jacob Egibi became the founding father of modern banking. While Judah was in captivity, Jacob began a business of loaning out money for a rate of interest. During the Reign of King Kandalanu of Babylon (circa 648-625 B.C.) a new phenomenon appeared on the scene which Jacob Egibi played a major part, and that was the invention of private banking. There were 2 prominent families at this time, they were the Egibi family and the Iranu families. These 2 families are not a figment of imagination as their names have appeared in many cuneiform tablets discovered by Archaeologists. It's believed the Egibi family was taken with the first captivity into Assyria and later migrated to Babylon. At the time of the 70 year captivity, Jacob Egibi already had an ongoing private banking business in which he collected large sums of interest. Now we have secular insight as to why many of the Jews did not want to return with Nehemiah to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem.

By the time of the end of the captivity, many of the others who were in captivity with the Egibi families learned this evil business practice and began to set up shop. A good example of this are the moneychangers which the Lord Jesus Christ threw out of the temple. As a friend said many times, "Christ drove the moneychangers from the temple and was crucified 4 days later."
During the time of the Persian period, loan sharking became a business where interest rates of anywhere from 30-50% were charged. As time went on, the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus, tells us that during the reigns of Caesar Augustus (27 BC - 14 AD) and Tiberius (14-32 AD) records of the Roman empire reveal deposits, withdrawals, brokers fees and loans. When the western Roman Empire fell, banking continued to thrive in Egypt, Byzantium, and the Arab nations of the Red Sea.

When the Christian era began the church became a powerful entity; she returned to the Old Testament Edict of not charging usury which continued up until the time of the Renaissance when banks began appearing across Europe.

With the rise of international trade which commenced at the end of the medieval period, many banks were allowed to coin money for their transactions. At that time, there was no such thing as national money and when the banks minted coins, they were all of different value which created a dilemma for international trade. The first "Christian" gold coins were struck by Emperor Frederick II in 1225 A.D, "ducats'' of Portugal, "florins" of Florence, "agnels" of France, and "sequins" the official coins of Genoa and Venice.

Europe then progressed from the Feudal system and with this came trade between different nations which resulted in foreign moneys accumulating in the various cities in Europe.

1694: The Year which Doomed the World's Economies

The government of King William III was in desperate need of money. When learning of this situation, a man named William Patterson put together a cartel of wealthy men, of which he was the leader. Patterson and cronies agreed to loan the King 1,200,000 pound sterling which would have been approximately 6 million dollars at 8% interest per annum on the condition that the king would grant 2 things:

1) grant Patterson and his associates a charter which would name them "The Bank of England," and

2) This bank shall have the "sole and exclusive right" to issue notes to the fullest extent of its capital.

The people were having a problem with their gold and silver coins of which the bankers quickly came to the rescue. The solution is aptly described by Professor Carroll Quigley in his book, Tragedy and Hope:

• ...for generations men had sought to avoid the one drawback of gold, its heaviness, by using pieces of paper to represent specific pieces of gold. Today we call such pieces of paper "gold certificates." Such a certificate entitled its bearer to exchange it for pieces of gold on demand, but in view of convenience of paper, only a small fraction of certificate holders ever did make such demands. It early became clear that gold need be held on hand only to the amount needed to cover the fraction of certificates likely to be presented for payment; accordingly the rest of the gold could be used for business purposes, or, what amounts to the same thing. A volume of certificates could be issued greater than the volume of gold reserved for payment....Such an excess volume of paper claims against reserves we now call bank notes. In effect, this creation of paper claims greater than the reserves available means that bankers were creating money out of nothing...

The King literally granted the Bank of England the legal right to print all the money that would be used in commerce by the people and the government. The Bank of England became the sole money source of any currency that was used in English commerce by either the people or the government. If they needed more money, they simply printed it. It is said that by 1698 British government owed 16 X 10 to the 6 power pounds sterling to the Bank of England. Keep in mind this was only 4 years.

1773: The Second Date of Infamy... a wealthy goldsmith and coin dealer named Mayer Amschel Bauer (1743-1812) summoned 12 wealthy and influential men to his place of business in Frankfurt, Germany. His purpose for the meeting was to impress upon these men that if they pooled their resources, it was possible to gain control of the wealth, natural resources, and manpower of the entire world. He then outlined a 25 point plan on how to accomplish it.

The plan was put into operation and evidentiary information exists that Bauer aligned himself with Adam Weishaupt who was the founder of the Illuminati whose aim was and still is world domination. Bauer later changed his name to Rothschild which means "red shield." He took it from the red sign which hung outside his place of business. It is supposed to symbolize his five sons.

Later on each of the five sons were dispatched to a major city in Europe to establish a branch of the Rothschild banking firm.

Son #1 - Amschel - Remained in Frankfurt and propelled Germany to financial success under Bismarck.

Son #2 - Salomon - Went to Vienna, Austria. he became a leader in the Austria-Hungary Empire.

Son #3 - Nathan Mayer - Went to England where he took control of the Bank of England.

Son #4 - Carl - Went to Naples where he became the most powerful man in Italy through his banking skills.

Son #5 - James Jacob - Went to Paris where he established the central bank. He was credited with dominating the financial destiny of the nation of France.

By 1850, the House of Rothschild represented more wealth than all the families of Europe. Shortly after he formed the Bank of England, William Patterson lost control of it to Nathan Rothschild and here is how he did it:

• Nathan Rothschild was an observer on the day the Duke of Wellington defeated Napoleon at Waterloo, Belgium. He knew that with this information he could make a fortune. He later paid a sailor a big fee to take him across the English Channel in bad weather. The news of Napoleon's defeat would take a while to hit England. When Nathan arrived in London, he began selling securities and bonds in a panic. The other investors were deceived into believing that Napoleon won the war and was eyeing England so they began to sell their securities too. What they were unaware of is that Rothschild's agents were buying all the securities that were being sold in panic. In one day, the Rothschild fortune grew by one million pounds. They literally bought control of England for a few cents on the dollar. The same way the Rockefeller's went into Japan after World War 2 and bought everything 10 cents on the dollar. SONY=Standard Oil New York, a Rockefeller Company.

Frederick Morton wrote ..

• "...the wealth of the Rothschilds consists of the bankruptcy of nations."

There were other wealthy families in Europe and America which were allowed to join "the international banking club" such as John D. Rockefeller and John Pierpont Morgan.

__________________
Hi, I like communications. I like intelligent and amusing people. We might disagree, but that's okay. Just don't be boring.

Early American Wisdom

The Americans had won their political independence but their financial independence was in jeopardy. The international bankers had an agent in place and his name was Alexander Hamilton who wanted a central bank. Thomas Jefferson lobbied vehemently against the central bank stating it was contrary to the Constitution. However, a central bank was formed in 1781 known as the Bank of North America which was patterned after the Bank of England. The colonists wanted nothing to do with it so it folded in 1790.

In 1826, the second bank's charter was soon to expire and presidential candidate Andrew Jackson campaigned strongly against a central bank which was owned and operated by the international banking element. Here is Jackson's opinion of those bankers:

• "You are a den of vipers. I intend to wipe you out, and by the Eternal God I will rout you out...If people only understood the rank injustice of the money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning."

In 1836, the charter did expire but that was not the end of the international banking influence in this country. The Civil War was planned in England as far back as 1809. Slavery was not the real cause of the Civil War. The Rothschilds (who were heavy into the slave trade) used the slavery issue as "a divide and conquer strategy" which almost split the United States in two. The Bank of England financed the North while the Paris branch of the Rothschild bank funded the South. In 1863, the National Banking Act was passed despite protest by President Lincoln. This act allowed a private corporation the authority to issue our money.

Enter 1913

In November of 1910, some of these vultures came together at the Jekyl Island Hunt Club on Jekyl Island, Georgia. What were they hunting? The biggest prize of all, the absolute and complete control of all the money in America which means control of all America and with it the power to make slaves of all the people.

Those who attended were: Senator Nelson Aldrich (Nelson Rockefeller's maternal grandfather); A. Piatt Andrew, Economist and Assistant Secretary of the Treasury; Frank Vanderlip, President of the National City Bank of New York; Henry P. Norton, President of Morgan's First National Bank of New York; Paul Moritz Warburg, a German who was partner in the New York banking house of Kuhn, Loeb Co.; Benjamin Strong, an aid to J. P. Morgan.

Paul Warburg was credited as the architect of the bill which was passed by Congress and signed by traitorous Woodrow Wilson. It was entitled the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. America had a central bank but this time they had placed America under an absolute dictatorship.

The Federal Reserve was incorporated in 1914 and has been creating a completely unnecessary national debt ever since. In simple terms, the Fed creates money as debt. They create money out of thin air by nothing more than a book entry. Whenever the members of the Fed make any loans, that debt money is our money supply. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) was created to collect taxes to pay the interest to the Federal Reserve System.

The United States went bankrupt in 1938 because of this system. It took the Fed only 25 years to bankrupt the USA. The American people are paying about $300 billion dollars a year in interest to this phony organization.
The national debt is increased about $1.71 billion dollars every day (as of October 12, 2004) . Have you taken a look at your money? It says "Federal Reserve Note" which means it is an instrument of debt. There is no real money in circulation.

__________________
Hi, I like communications. I like intelligent and amusing people. We might disagree, but that's okay. Just don't be boring.

The Assassination of President Kennedy

One of the greatest coverups in history was the Killing of the President. If you believe the Mafia did it, then I have ocean front land in Kansas for you to buy. President Kennedy was murdered over money, $4 billion dollars worth. You see, he had printed $4 billion worth of non-interest bearing money which meant he began to chop at the profits of the vultures. Interest free money means the national debt is eliminated and the power of the international banking element is broken. So to prevent Kennedy from abolishing the illegal Fed, he was assassinated. Coincidence? As soon as the traitor Johnson was in office, he recalled all the debt free notes and continued our country in the same path of ruin. There, the mystery of the killing is over. Just follow the trail of the money .

War

Now that the Federal Reserve was firmly in place, schemes had to be constructed to get the government to borrow so a continuously growing national debt would happen. So here are some coincidences: The Federal Reserve is created in 1913, then in 1914 we have World War 1. Right at the end of World War 1, we have a depressed economy especially in the Weimar Republic where 2 billion marks could buy a loaf of bread. In 1917, we had the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. A man named Lord Alfred Milner was a front man and paymaster for the Rothschilds in Petrograd during the revolution. He later headed a secret organization called The Round Table which was dedicated to a one world government run by wealthy financiers (Jews) under socialism.

By 1932 the price of stocks had plummeted 80%. When the bankers plunged this nation into a depression on that fateful day in October, at the New York Stock Exchange was a visitor, his name was Winston Churchill who stated after the crash of '29, "Now I know who wields the real power."

A banker named Bernard Baruch was President Roosevelt's personal advisor during World War 2. Baruch made $200 million dollars as a result of World War 2. During WW2 the Rockefellers were selling oil to the Germans from their Standard Oil concern in Argentina.

The Council on Foreign Relations

The CFR was formed in 1919 in Paris, France by Colonel Edward Mandell House who was known as Woodrow Wilson's alter ego. The CFR was and still is dedicated to the one world rule under a new world order. In fact, every war has been planned by the CFR. Every American President since 1919 has had their cabinet filled with CFR members. Also our traitorous Presidents fill their cabinets with not only CFR members but those of the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, the Yale Fraternity of the Skull and Bones (George Bush was a member of this).

These members insure that the will of the bankers are done, even if the President is not a member of any group. After WW2, was fought another war was created known as the Korean War (which was started by a phone call from John Foster Dulles), then the Vietnam War. During the Vietnamese War, the Rockefellers had a metals processing plant going full blast in North Vietnam. The Rockefellers have the blood of thousands of Americans on their hands because of their supplying the Russians with weapons and metals. The North Vietnamese received their weapons from Russia. The only reason these rats are never indicted for treason, is because since WW2 there has never been a declared war which means if we have no official enemy, there can be no aiding the enemy AKA treason.

continued...

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Hi, I like communications. I like intelligent and amusing people. We might disagree, but that's okay. Just don't be boring.

Presently we have skirmishes such as the Gulf War of 1990 which was an experiment by the New World Order crowd to see how fast they can assemble an army in case a country does not choose to obey the dictates of the banker bosses. Of course funding for the gulf war came from borrowing money from the Fed. Wherever you hear of a limited war, or some type of political destabilization, think of the money trail. Wars are started in foreign countries, then our President goes there and gives millions of dollars of borrowed money which normally goes into the pockets of the dictators. Nowhere in our Constitution is it written that our government is to borrow money and give it away.

The American economy has been sucked dry by the Federal Reserve System. Americans think they own property but the truth is the entire United States has been mortgaged to the bankers. The Rothschilds and Rockefellers become richer while the peoples of the world become poorer. The International Monetary Fund and the World Bank are also designed to loan money to developing nations with the understanding that they will never be able to repay so with every loan made to a country, it becomes their death knell. The entire world has been plunged into a debt economy which means 6 billion people are in debt to about 250 men. But keep in mind that all their wealth is phony because it is created money without any gold backing. No one talks about it.

I remember leaving materials about the Federal Reserve at a meeting of Concerned Women for America. The next day I went back and not one copy was taken. The reason given me was because it was not approved material. Groups like Concerned Women for America and the Christian Coalition and Rush Limbaugh are something known as controlled opposition. They are allowed to exist as long as they do not bring up the real issues. If they stick to the created Liberal Democrat Vs. conservative Republican agenda, they can exist and the bankers will even make them famous.

THE TEN MEMBER BANKS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE
All owned by the Rothschilds
Rothschild Bank of London
Warburg Bank of Hamburg
Rothschild Bank of Berlin
Lehman Brothers of New York
Lazard Brothers of Paris
Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy
Goldman, Sachs of New York
Warburg Bank of Amsterdam
Chase Manhattan Bank of New York

THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS ILLEGAL AND OUR IMPOTENT CONGRESS REFUSES TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND ABOLISH THE FED. THEY WOULD RATHER ALLOW US TO REMAIN IN BONDAGE FOREVER. DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE BOTH USELESS ENTITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY THE BANKERS (international Jews).

THE NATIONAL DEBT IS PHONY!!!

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Hi, I like communications. I like intelligent and amusing people. We might disagree, but that's okay. Just don't be boring.

Excuse me?

Goldman, Sachs of New York is a public corporation.

And it's specifically not a bank!

Pleassssssse. We've got a major problem and it sails over your head!!!

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Hi, I like communications. I like intelligent and amusing people. We might disagree, but that's okay. Just don't be boring.

No, you're foisting BS into the airwaves.

Goldman, Sachs is a publicly owned corporation.

It is not a bank.

Well, the issue is that the Federal Reserve is a private bank, as was discussed on this thread. Now, as to which banks truly own and control it, I don't know. But the real issue is just to acknowledge that it's member banks do make a profit at our expense and end its unholy control over our currency.

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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer