The Serbs still in Kosovo - Page 3

AsIAm · #21 (**permalink**) 02-26-2008, 08:21 PM

Okay guys this is not leading anywhere, and that is the problem with every single topic regarding Kosovo or Serbia. I want to go back to the conflicts that hapened in the region in last 20 years.

This question goes to Sadistic-Saviour:
I am a foreign excange student here in North Carolina and i am really into politics here, so tell me one thing. Since you are definitly not liberal i figure you must be at least somewhat if not completely conservative with which i cannot agree more to be honest with you. After seeing what liberal society in this country stands for i felt bad for the people of United States, and the whole world since no matter how much we argued it, USA is one of the main world powers. So starting from a fact that you are conservative republican i have to ask you a question. What makes you think that KLA, UCK, and ANA insurgent terrorist forces (which were the terrorist organizations detected in Kosovo and Metohija region over past 20 years) are any different than Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hammas? What makes you think that those same organizations are not working in a tight connection with Al-Qaeda? I want emphasize to you before i go any further that i do not decline that Serbian troops commited war crimes during the conflicts in the region but you have to understand that it takes two to fight a war and if you think that those resistance forces have their hands clean you are wrong. Explain to me why is there a double standard in war against terrorism in the United States foreign policy? Why are Afganistan Mujahedins any different from Checnian, Bosnian or Albanian? is it because they fought and still are fighting some one who you see as an potential enemy of your country?
I guess what i am trying to say is that no matter how tolerant we are, we have to understand that it is extremist Islam that we are dealing with all over the world and they are all the same. Trust me, Muslim society does not pay attention to race, color or ethnicity of their members otherwise that American islamist or that Australian islamist would never have got that far in Al-Qaeda network.
Creation of independent republic of Kosovo is by my opinion a mystake and let me explain why. As my countryman already explained it goes against international law and to be honest with you, your statement that pretty much states that USA is above that same law is very frightening because if majority of your countrymen think the same, this world is in for some trouble if not war. Now, if creation of new islamic country in the heart of Europe is some sort of a strategy to bring down European Union and inflict instability in the region than just as i said before, this world at the brink of a new war. Otherwise i do not see how USA as a leader in war against terrorism is fighting it on one front but supporting and financing the very same on the other. I would like you to answer these questions for me please. And i seriously do not want a flame war since Internet is full of that, so for a change lets have a discusion.

Sadistic-Savior · #22 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 06:19 AM

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I would like you to answer these questions for me please. And i seriously do not want a flame war since Internet is full of that, so for a change lets have a discusion.

Mostly its other people who flame me. I'll answer whatever questions you want.

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I am a foreign excange student here in North Carolina and i am really into politics here, so tell me one thing. Since you are definitly not liberal i figure you must be at least somewhat if not completely conservative with which i cannot agree more to be honest with you.

You don't have to agree. Lots of people don't. Most foreigners are liberal by American standards. Especially Europeans.

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After seeing what liberal society in this country stands for i felt bad for the people of United States, and the whole world since no matter how much we argued it, USA is one of the main world powers.

Argument has nothing to do with why we are a world superpower. It has to do with our economy, military, and technology. Its an objective standard.

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What makes you think that KLA, UCK, and ANA insurgent terrorist forces (which were the terrorist organizations detected in Kosovo and Metohija region over past 20 years) are any different than Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hammas?

I don't know that they are. I just know that the alternatives to Kosovo independence were worse. So I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and hope they do the right thing.

You will find that Americans have a very strong resentment against prejudice...including the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists. This is true among the majority of both liberals and conservatives in America. Even after 911 we went out of our way to remind ourselves that it wasn't all Muslims who attacked us, just an extremist minority.

Historically speaking, democracy tends to take power away from extremists. Thats why terrorists hate democracy so much. They know that if given a free choice, the masses will choose our way over that of the terrorists. Spreading democracy therefore contributes to our long term security, among other things.

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What makes you think that those same organizations are not working in a tight connection with Al-Qaeda?

I am unwilling to assume that the Kosovo government is working with Al Queada by default. I am unwilling to convict them before they have had a chance to prove themselves.

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Explain to me why is there a double standard in war against terrorism in the United States foreign policy?

There is no double standard in this context. We support democracy. Even if the democracy elects people who do not support our interests. To do otherwise makes us hypocrites.

That doesn't mean we will ally with every democracy. We can recognize a government as legitimate and still not agree with them. But it means we will respect their sovereignty and treat them as equals.

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I guess what i am trying to say is that no matter how tolerant we are, we have to understand that it is extremist Islam that we are dealing with all over the world and they are all the same.

I am unwilling to assume all Islamic governments are terrorist sympathizers by default.

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As my countryman already explained it goes against international law and to be honest with you, your statement that pretty much states that USA is above that same law is very frightening because if majority of your countrymen think the same

I don't think we are obligated to obey any law that legitimizes oppressive governments. I believe most Americans feel the same way. We only pay lip service to international law, and ignore it when it is no longer convenient. We do not recognize any (ANY) law in the world as superseding our Constitution. The US is not subordinate to any international law...that is the view of most Americans in my opinion.

And lets be honest...if our enemies were in our place they'd be doing the exact same thing. Even Serbia would do the same thing in our place, in my opinion. None of you obeys international law because it is "right"....you do so because you fear the consequences if you don't.

Well, we have demonstrated that there are no consequences for us, other than the fact that other people don't like us. If it comes down to a choice between opposing evil or being liked by everyone, guess which one we are going to pick? There are things that are more important than being loved by the rest of the world. It all comes down to priorities.

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Now, if creation of new Islamic country in the heart of Europe is some sort of a strategy to bring down European Union

It is not. You are thinking like a European. Americans don't care about bringing down the EU, or Serbia, or any other democracy. Thats not our goal. If anything our goal is to strengthen them.

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Otherwise i do not see how USA as a leader in war against terrorism is fighting it on one front but supporting and financing the very same on the other.

There are things we are unwilling to do to fight terrorism. We are not going to deny people freedom in the name of the War on Terror. We would be hypocrites if we did that.

Many (most) Americans currently believe that the Albanian minority in Serbia was oppressed. Thats why we support Kosovo independence. Not because we hate Serbia or want to punish them. Not because we are in a piѕsing contest with Russia. And certainly not because we want to undermine the EU, most of whom are NATO allies.

A lot of the Serbians on here refuse to accept that, because they don't understand the American mentality, which is much different from that of most Europeans (especially Eastern Europeans). They engage in mirror imaging...assuming that we would react as they would if they were in our place, and will not accept any response that does not fit with that assumption. You have to approach the questions from an American frame of reference if you want real answers.

Fascist Canuck · #23 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 06:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

Mostly its other people who flame me. I'll answer whatever questions you want.

You don't have to agree. Lots of people don't. Most foreigners are liberal by American standards. Especially Europeans.

Argument has nothing to do with why we are a world superpower. It has to do with our economy, military, and technology. Its an objective standard.

I don't know that they are. I just know that the alternatives to Kosovo independence were worse. So I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and hope they do the right thing.

You will find that Americans have a very strong resentment against prejudice...including the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists. This is true among the majority of both liberals and conservatives in America. Even after 911 we went out of our way to remind ourselves that it wasn't all Muslims who attacked us, just an extremist minority.

Historically speaking, democracy tends to take power away from extremists. Thats why terrorists hate democracy so much. They know that if given a free choice, the masses will choose our way over that of the terrorists. Spreading democracy therefore contributes to our long term security, among other things.

I am unwilling to assume that the Kosovo government is working with Al Queada by default. I am unwilling to convict them before they have had a chance to prove themselves.

There is no double standard in this context. We support democracy. Even if the democracy elects people who do not support our interests. To do otherwise makes us hypocrites.

That doesn't mean we will ally with every democracy. We can recognize a government as legitimate and still not agree with them. But it means we will respect their sovereignty and treat them as equals.

I am unwilling to assume all Islamic governments are terrorist sympathizers by default.

I don't think we are obligated to obey any law that legitimizes oppressive governments. I believe most Americans feel the same way. We only pay lip service to international law, and ignore it when it is no longer convenient. We do not recognize any (ANY) law in the world as superseding our Constitution. The US is not subordinate to any international law...that is the view of most Americans in my opinion.

And lets be honest...if our enemies were in our place they'd be doing the exact same thing. Even Serbia would do the same thing in our place, in my opinion. None of you obeys international law because it is "right"....you do so because you fear the consequences if you don't.

Well, we have demonstrated that there are no consequences for us, other than the fact that other people don't like us. If it comes down to a choice between opposing evil or being liked by everyone, guess which one we are going to pick? There are things that are more important than being loved by the rest of the world. It all comes down to priorities.

It is not. You are thinking like a European. Americans don't care about bringing down the EU, or Serbia, or any other democracy. Thats not our goal. If anything our goal is to strengthen them.

There are things we are unwilling to do to fight terrorism. We are not going to deny people freedom in the name of the War on Terror. We would be hypocrites if we did that.

Many (most) Americans currently believe that the Albanian minority in Serbia was oppressed. Thats why we support Kosovo independence. Not because we hate Serbia or want to punish them. Not because we are in a piѕsing contest with Russia. And certainly not because we want to undermine the EU, most of whom are NATO allies.

A lot of the Serbians on here refuse to accept that, because they don't understand the American mentality, which is much different from that of most Europeans (especially Eastern Europeans). They engage in mirror imaging...assuming that we would react as they would if they were in our place, and will not accept any response that does not fit with that assumption. You have to approach the questions from an American frame of reference if you want real answers.

Uh, the Albanians were, and are, a majority in Kosovo. How would they thus become oppressed? In the former Yugoslavia, the Albanians were treated the same way as everyone else. Under Tito, everyone got along just fine. It was not until the fall of communism throughout Europe that the Muslims began to flex their so-called muscles. They simply did not want to share. They saw Yugoslavia crumbling, and decided to jump at the pieces which remained, like a child who scrabbles for pieces of a cookie before anyone else gets it.

I should like to remind you, the former Yugoslavia was communist. As such, had they so desired, the Serbs would simply have driven the Albanians out of Yugoslavia proper. Who was going to stop them? This would thus be your beloved excuse of 'oppression'. Yet, it never happened. The Soviets did it, but the Serbs did not.

You say that the USA is not subordinate to any international law, and as such, you therefore have the right to work towards destablising the Balkans for your own gain. Gee, I do recall someone who worked that way. They were called the Soviet Union. Tell me, imagine the majority of Californians were Mexican in origin, and they decided to declare their independence from the USA, how would you feel were the Soviets then to jump in, and threaten you if you chose to intercede to ensure that California never breaks away from your American union? You wouldn't like that now, would you? **MOD EDIT: Personal attack deleted.** For the record, I am 100% behind the Serbs on this one, and I actually pray that the Russians man up and intervene against any form of American interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

Sadistic-Savior · #24 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 07:38 AM

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Uh, the Albanians were, and are, a majority in Kosovo. How would they thus become oppressed?

Because they were subordinate to the Serbians. The fact that they were a majority in Kosovo is irrelevant, because Kosovo itself was subordinate to Serbia....which was dominated by Serbians.

Why would this matter to you anyway? Didn't you just say you hate democracy?

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Under Tito, everyone got along just fine.

There's a few Kosovars on this forum who apparently disagree with you.

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It was not until the fall of communism throughout Europe that the Muslims began to flex their so-called muscles. They simply did not want to share. They saw Yugoslavia crumbling, and decided to jump at the pieces which remained, like a child who scrabbles for pieces of a cookie before anyone else gets it.

So you are saying you dont approve of Democracy or Might makes Right?

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You say that the USA is not subordinate to any international law, and as such, you therefore have the right to work towards destablising the Balkans for your own gain. Gee, I do recall someone who worked that way. They were called the Soviet Union.

So why should we be subordinate to International Law?

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Tell me, imagine the majority of Californians were Mexican in origin, and they decided to declare their independence from the USA, how would you feel were the Soviets then to jump in, and threaten you if you chose to intercede to ensure that California never breaks away from your American union?

If it really came to that, the Soviets would never have the opportunity. Because we'd let them go.

That is why democracy is a superior system. We don't have to force them to stay. Because they WANT to stay.

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You wouldn't like that now, would you?

"Like" is irrelevant.

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I abhor hypocrisy.

And yet, here you are, advocating that we be hypocrites. I hope the irony isn't lost on you.

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I am 100% behind the Serbs on this one

I'd never have guessed.

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I actually pray that the Russians man up and intervene against any form of American interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

Thats probably a good idea, since it would take divine intervention to make Russia confront us on anything, heh heh

If you had God on your side you might have a 50-50 chance of actually beating us.

AmusedToDeath · #25 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 09:53 AM

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I don't know that they are. I just know that the alternatives to Kosovo independence were worse.

Sadistic, your hypocrisy knows no boundaries...

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In the former Yugoslavia, the Albanians were treated the same way as everyone else.

Exactly. Serbian actions were just a reaction to Albanian actions. Albanians created Milosevic and brought him to power. Albanians created Serbian nationalism.

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should like to remind you, the former Yugoslavia was communist. As such, had they so desired, the Serbs would simply have driven the Albanians out of Yugoslavia proper. Who was going to stop them? This would thus be your beloved excuse of 'oppression'. Yet, it never happened. The Soviets did it, but the Serbs did not.

True. Although, not fully. Serbian police did make mistakes during the nineties, and did make the condition worse. Some innocent Albanians suffered, and that fact I do not deny. But that was Milosevic's policy. And even though the Serbs overthrew him and established democracy, the West did not acknowledge that in terms of the Kosovo issue. Why is that for? Because of USA's selfish interests in the Balkans. The EU complied.

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For the record, I am 100% behind the Serbs on this one

Every kind of support in fighting for the truth is welcome

lunecat · #26 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 10:05 AM

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Originally Posted by AsIAm

...
What makes you think that KLA, UCK, and ANA insurgent terrorist forces (which were the terrorist organizations detected in Kosovo and Metohija region over past 20 years) are any different than Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hammas?
....

One side has been reconcilled to Democratic ways (much like IRA and Sienn Fein) that being to lay down the ArmaLite/Kalashnikov and adopt the ballot box.

Hammas is a unique case.

xDonnax · #27 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Fascist Canuck

[color="Red"] In the former Yugoslavia, the Albanians were treated the same way as everyone else. Under Tito, everyone got along just fine.

Oh really

How do you know? Were you an Albanian living there at that time?

Before 1974, the Albanians living in Kosovo were NOT allowed to speak their mother tongue, not use their flag...Basically, anything that had to do with the Albanian Identity was forbidden. And remember this was 21 years after Tito came to power. So even under his rule, the Albanians were oppressed.

AmusedToDeath · #28 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 10:31 AM

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Oh really How do you know? Were you an Albanian living there at that time?

There is something that is called "objectivity". Objectively, the Albanians lived just fine under Tito. They were running their feet off from the Enver Hoxha dictatorial regime, and Tito generously accepted them. The Serbs generously accepted them too. Only to realize 40 years later that they had made the worse mistake in their entire history.

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Basically, anything that had to do with the Albanian Identity was forbidden. And remember this was 21 years after Tito came to power. So even under his rule, the Albanians were oppressed.

Not true. Either you gain some knowledge of the facts, or stop posting and destroying the thread.

Everything that had to do with any national identity of the nations living in communist Yugoslavia was forbidden. That refers to Serbs, Croats, Macedonians, Slovenians, Albanians. Nationalism in any sort of view was strictly forbidden under Tito. There was only his communist party, no history, no religions, no nothing. History began with him coming to power. That was Tito. But everybody seemed to be happy and had no problems with that, since the economy was doing fine. But only the Albanians had a problem, so he quelled your extremists' efforts back in the sixties. Thanks to Aleksandar Rankovic, of course

xDonnax · #29 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 10:38 AM

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Originally Posted by AmusedToDeath

Sadistic, your hypocrisy knows no boundaries...

Look who's talking. The pot calling the kettle black.

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Exactly. Serbian actions were just a reaction to Albanian actions. Albanians created Milosevic and brought him to power. Albanians created Serbian nationalism.

You are funny you. Not only is Milosevic used as a scapegoat, but so are the Albanians. Sure Milosevic does hold some of the responsebility, but he didn't come to power by himself, nor was he able to kill the tens of thousands of civilians alone. This is NOT a-one-man's- work. This is done by the Serbian Government, with the SUPORT of its people.

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True. Although, not fully. Serbian police did make mistakes during the nineties, and did make the condition worse. Some innocent Albanians suffered, and that fact I do not deny. But that was Milosevic's policy. And even though the Serbs overthrew him and established democracy, the West did not acknowledge that in terms of the Kosovo issue. Why is that for? Because of USA's selfish interests in the Balkans. The EU complied.

Every kind of support in fighting for the truth is welcome

Mr Milosevic is just the tip of the iceberg! The hate for the Albanians is is older than you and I put togther.

Does ""The Expulsion of the Albanians: Memorandum 1937" ring a bell?!
If not, take a look, it might refresh your memory; http://www.aacl.com/expulsion23.html

Everytime the Serbian Goverentment have had a chance to ethnic cleans the Albanians out of thier homes, they've done it!!

Lmao, and since when is Serbia a so called "democratic state"?

Even though Milisevich is gone, as you mentioned above, even TODAY you still have people with the same mindset as Milosevich, i.e the Serbian Prime Minister, Vojislav Kostunica.

What democratic state has a prime minister who is a Ultranationalist? He got more that 45% of the votes. That is scary!!

They say a picture tells more than 1000 words, right? http://photos8.flickr.com/10670056_ec8e1b80fc_m.jpg << Mr. Kostunica

Serbia is a Natonal(Social)istic State .

lunecat · #30 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 10:42 AM

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Originally Posted by AmusedToDeath

....
But only the Albanians had a problem, so he quelled your extremists' efforts back in the sixties. Thanks to Aleksandar Rankovic, of course

Typical Serb. always resorting to brutal oppressive tactics when faced with the slightest decent.

Here in the free World we are allowed to disagree and even protest publically without being thrown into prison or "dissappeared"

This is why we accept Kosovan Independence - freedom from the Serbian Jackboot.

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