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Thread: Fast Food workers declare minimum wage "unlivable"

  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bomac View Post
    Realistically, not many but the really desperate ones who have little to lose started the union build up before WW1 and unions were a force during and after the Depression. When enough people get upset about wealth distribution, they rise up. We are still in the New Depression and the last 30 years have been hard on workers. The times are similar to the last depression coming after the last Wall Street collapse. If workers don't push for better wages now, workers will be the new permanent slaves.

    Scabs were not allowed to replace striking workers (sometimes violently) 100 years ago. If workers do not unite now, they will be struggling the rest of their lives. I do not remember the figure (80%?) who are struggling paycheck to paycheck but the right certainly crowed about that. The times are desperate and the times call for desperate actions. It happened before and it can happen again. Certainly not overnight but, if we don't start, it will never happen. Oh, and the public back then did support the strikers by not crossing picket lines.
    You still have a leverage problem. They can and will hire employees who will undercut the wages already being received and if that isn't enough the trespassers from the south will fill the void with little to no interference from the best government corporate money can buy.

    No leverage means no influence/no power. Until enough people are going under, any movement will fall on deaf ears, or become a distorted mess just like the OWS lost it's way, and the Tea Party was hijacked by the neocons, without actual leverage/power a movement doesn't create change, it just becomes a toy for the rich/elites (people with power) to (*)(*)(*)(*) with.
    Government is a disease masquerading as it's own cure.

    Politics is the dishonest art of misleading the gullible and manipulating the ignorant & emotionally distraught to get votes from the poor and election funds from the rich by promising to protect each from other.

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  3. #632
    usa us illinois
    Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States of America
    Posts: 10,788

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    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    It is a nonsensical notion invented by capitalists to mask and promote their agenda.
    The boogey man complex. Everybody is out to get you. It makes you look paranoid, and lack objectivity.


    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    The free market is a fairy tale that has never and will never exist.
    It serves no purpose to speak in absolutes. I don't think you will see hardly anybody, even libertarians who support laissez faire capitalism.

    That doesn't however mean that the concepts and principles of a free market shouldn't be sought within the confines of regulation, such as monopoly prevention.

    Claiming in absolute terms that the concepts of "free market capitalism" has never existed is true. Then again, nobody is advocating for that.



    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    Yes everything is simple to 'free market people." However to everyone else back in the real world, things are less so.
    Are you capable of discussing your perspective without these little jabs? This is how a child attempts to defend their opinion. Grow up.



    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    The market doesn't need human interaction to exist?
    The market doesn't need human interaction and manipulation to exist. Meaning, you don't have to apply human driven desire into the market to make it feasible. Somebody else said that collective bargining IS the free market, which is false. The simple concepts of supply/demand need no human interaction to establish value. It is what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    The market is essentially a collection of an enormous number of human interactions.
    No... human interaction is demand and supply. The market is and should be separate.



    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    Without human interactions, markets actually objectively would not exist. What in the world are you talking about?

    Sure it would. The value of gold would be the same as the value of sand if no humans DEMANDED it. The market doesn't need people to artificially set gold values. The market is pure.




    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    Again, the market is just a placeholder. It isn't a tangible thing. It can't make judgements. It is an amalgamation of all the decisions individual people make on a regular basis. Market forces are determined by the activities and decisions of human beings. This is not up for debate. It is undeniable.
    Well you are an arrogant putz anyway, aren't you. A true internet rebel.

    We are basically saying the same thing.

    The point of contention is whether humans need to artificially manipulate the market to keep it relevant. In my opinion, they don't and shouldn't. Because the market DOES make judgements. The market automatically adjusts to offset the manipulation. This is where you disagree with me. Leave all your snide comments aside and debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    If people refuse to work for a certain amount of money, more money will need to be offered to create an incentive to obtain their labor.
    If supply of people is strangled for any reason, then the value of labor increases. Yes. Once again, supply an demand. Unfortunately, anybody who is willing to do the job for less is the market at work. You labor is only worth what somebody else is willing to do the work for. That is the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    You are completely ignoring the labor supply curve. Equilibrium does not exist where the demand curve wants it to exist, it exists where the demand curve meets the supply curve. So what people are willing to pay compared to what people are willing to supply the labor for. This is economics 101, first day of economics 101 really.
    Exactly. The labor is what PEOPLE are willing to supply it for. That means, anybody that is willing to supply the labor for less IS the market at work. Explain to me again about collective bargining and the market, because it appears you are very good at tossing out insults, and terrible at actually taking a position and defending it.

    What you haven't done is defended the point that market manipulation has an equal and opposite reaction as the market self adjusts.

    Quote Originally Posted by frodly View Post
    Do keep up.

    Do keep tossing out these immature little snide comments. It makes you look more and more the fool.
    My Favorite Quotes (unmitigated truths)

    "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Unknown
    "Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure." -Robert LeFevre
    "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." -Albert Camus

  4. #633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSixpack View Post
    You still have a leverage problem. They can and will hire employees who will undercut the wages already being received and if that isn't enough the trespassers from the south will fill the void with little to no interference from the best government corporate money can buy.
    Do you know who "scabs" are? They are the ones who take the jobs of the strikers. Yes, the working public has to be a part of this for anything to work. The best government corporate money was buying 100 years ago but they did buckle.

  5. #634

    Default

    "...the Tea Party was hijacked by the neocons..."

    Taxcutter says:
    Wait! I thought the neo-cons were fighting the TEA Party.

  6. #635
    usa us illinois
    Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States of America
    Posts: 10,788

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    Correct . And the MINIMUM manipulation would be to index the minimum wage with inflation. Not to monkey around with the formula.
    I disagree. The maximum manipulation would be those regulations necessary to create an environment that is fair for everybody to operate in. Minimum wages don't do that. All minimum wages do is cause inflation and artificially inflate the cost of labor.

    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    Let me ask you two questions. Answer sincerely please

    Was the average American worker better off 40 years ago?
    Did the USG spend less per capita on welfare 40 years ago?[/quote]

    Why 40 years? Why not 60? Why not 80? Lets not play the game where we find a period of time with an economic slow down and then try to use anecdotal evidence to prove a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    Of course the answer to BOTH questions is a big fat yes, proving the point that the failure to maintain the minimum wage to inflation standards has hurt both the lower income employees and the government. The ONLY people it has helped is the rich business owner.
    Um... 40 years ago would be 1973. The end of the post war boom.

    Kind of proves my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    Then if you couple that with this insane desire to lower their tax burden, it only compounds the problem. Can you truly not see that the rich want to keep their money on both ends?
    LOL

    I think its more admirable to try and keep ones own money on both ends, than to try and take money that isn't yours on both ends.

    The poor pay far less in income tax than they did 50 years ago too. Why only the disdain for the rich paying less?


    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    They don't want to pay decent wages AND they don't want to pay taxes. I'm sorry , but greed is good only to a point.
    "They don't want to pay".... they don't determine what wages are. The MARKET DOES.


    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    That point was probably crossed when my 8 year old daughter became $40K in tax debt.
    So let me get this straight. In your opinion, your 8 year old daughter has $40K in tax debt because the rich don't pay enough? Is that seriously your perspective?


    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    And here is what I actually believe concerning "conservatives" I believe that the vast majority of conservatives would ENDORSE the idea of a minimum wage increase if it weren't perceived to be a "left wing" platform.
    Oh come on... you have to demonize the oppositions perspective to partisan politics. What a cheap attempt. Seriously.



    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    It is HIGH time that forget about partisan politics and just support GOOD ideas and reject bad ones, no matter where they come from.
    Whats good for this country is the absolute destruction of the entitlement mentality. Squash it like a bug. The idea that anybody is OWED anything, utilizing the collective interest, is absolutely undermining the concept of individual sustainability through liberty. The perspective you have is precisely why we have a huge number of high school drop outs, who are capable only to flip burgers, DEMANDING better pay, and too stupid to see that paying them more just causes their cost of living to rise too.



    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    And don't worry,, I believe many many on the left are guilty of the same stupidity.
    Its stupid to expect people to AT A MINIMUM be a contributing member of society who ADDS more value than they take from the collective? Got it.
    My Favorite Quotes (unmitigated truths)

    "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Unknown
    "Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure." -Robert LeFevre
    "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." -Albert Camus

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bomac View Post
    Do you know who "scabs" are? They are the ones who take the jobs of the strikers. Yes, the working public has to be a part of this for anything to work. The best government corporate money was buying 100 years ago but they did buckle.

    People had a general respect for individuals who worked for a living back then even if they despised them on a personal level. The rich were not taken near as seriously by the average citizen, nor did they have such false admired by the people who worked for a living in those days, they knew for the most part they were not much better than the average Joe, if even that. And of course they owned some politicians in those days but not at the scale of ownership it is today. They have reestablished the two party system into a corporate owned scam, and for some reason people of today are oblivious to this obvious turn of events in the past 50 years or so.

    Yes I know what a scab is, do you know what a plutocracy is? Since Reagan squashed the air traffic controllers, unions and their power have been diminished immensely even though they have been walking the fine line for decades and still getting blamed for most everything that goes wrong because of management ineptitude, incompetence, and greedy/unethical tactics.

    The average person could give a (*)(*)(*)(*) if a fast food place is crying about their wages, as long as the crap they eat is ready at the window when they pull up to it, and they could give two squats as to who it is hashing the pig slop out. As long as the meat that cannot be defined as meat is on the $.99 menu who cares?
    Government is a disease masquerading as it's own cure.

    Politics is the dishonest art of misleading the gullible and manipulating the ignorant & emotionally distraught to get votes from the poor and election funds from the rich by promising to protect each from other.

  8. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSixpack View Post
    The average person could give a (*)(*)(*)(*) if a fast food place is crying about their wages, as long as the crap they eat is ready at the window when they pull up to it, and they could give two squats as to who it is hashing the pig slop out. As long as the meat that cannot be defined as meat is on the $.99 menu who cares?
    Hey now.. some people survive because of the $.99 menu..

    http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines...-fight-back-2/

    I personally like the $.99 menu.. No fancy $$$$ snotty food for me...

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Taxcutter View Post
    "...the Tea Party was hijacked by the neocons..."

    Taxcutter says:
    Wait! I thought the neo-cons were fighting the TEA Party.
    You could of fooled me. Tea Party voters are electing big government republicans at an alarming rate are they not?
    Government is a disease masquerading as it's own cure.

    Politics is the dishonest art of misleading the gullible and manipulating the ignorant & emotionally distraught to get votes from the poor and election funds from the rich by promising to protect each from other.

  10. #639
    usa us illinois
    Location: Chicago, Illinois, United States of America
    Posts: 10,788

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    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    you dumb, you REAL dumb.
    You childish. you REAL childish.


    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    We in NO way have a free market.
    Really?

    Please explain to me how stock values work. How commodities are valued. How precious metals are worth different amounts.

    Our entire economy is based on free market principles. Labor is no exception.

    As a society, we attempt to maintain a FAIR economic environment for all participants, and install regulation to prevent certain things like monopolies, anti-trust, corruption, etc., but none of that means that our entire economic climate is anything but a free market.


    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    You want to see a TRUE free market? Go to China , where the rich do whatever the hell they want unless and until someone stronger tells them they can't. Hell, they force prisoners to work, they have no safety codes, nor environmental codes. There is no minimum wage or child labor laws and thus 40 year old businessmen are riding around in chauffered limos while their factories are "manned" by 12 year old kids who are working 18 hours a day building little toys covered in lead based paint.
    Liberals must operate in the world of absolutes to attempt to validate their perspective.

    There is no such thing as absolute freedom either. You are not free to go and kill somebody. That doesn't mean we aren't a free country.

    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    THAT is a free market.
    No, that is a distorted view of a free market, applied to a black and white world of absolutes, to attempt to invalidate a perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by conhog View Post
    Thank God we don't live in one, but rather we live in a society where the government exerts some controls over the businesses.
    Ok great agree.

    The limits however of that exertion should be that which protects the OPPORTUNITY to partake in the market. Not choose winners and losers.

    My wifes family fled Korea because they were taxed at a higher rate than Koreans because of their Chinese decent. That would be an unfair market environment. Our government should be instituting laws and legislation related to the market that gives everybody the same shot.
    My Favorite Quotes (unmitigated truths)

    "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Unknown
    "Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure." -Robert LeFevre
    "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." -Albert Camus

  11. #640

    Default

    "Tea Party voters are electing big government republicans at an alarming rate are they not?"

    Taxcutter says:
    When the general election comes down to a big government Republican (RINO) vs a Democrat who is for MUCH BIGGER GOVERNMENT, the TEA Party does indeed vote for the lesser of two evils.

    That's why the TEA Party is purging out RINOs fast as they can.
    Last edited by Taxcutter; Aug 06 2013 at 09:32 AM.

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