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Old 05-22-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
my view is a bit different
raising the standard of living of our competitors'/trading partners' wage earners is a by product of the actual reason we need true "FAIR" trade agreements
how FAIR is the competitive field when the trading partner has no significant environmental controls, which controls impose a direct cost on operations? the cost/price of products available in the market is then unequal because such environmental mandates are borne by our industry but those costs are not imposed on the foreign firm
how FAIR is the exchange of goods when our trading partner - colombia is an example - does not tolerate the formation of workers' unions? when the goods provider can make its product using labor achieved at serf wages, how well can our own industry compete, when our nation rightfully embraces the right to labor organization
i am for FAIR trade as opposed to free trade ... FAIR trade agreements allow goods providers to compete on a level playing field

BRAVO to the democrats for refusing to sign an agreement which is without parity
But you're obviously not paying attention. The bill DID just that! Right now, Colombia gets to send their goods in here free of any tariffs. The bill says they continue, BUT we get the same thing---no tariffs going into THEIR country on OUR products. THAT makes it a level playing field. THAT makes it fair.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:32 AM
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This is the one area where I seriously depart from the Crats with.
Not that I think the Republicans intentions in this issue are always so saintly (sometimes "pro-free trade" is code for MNC Anarchy)...
But I really wish there were more pro-free trade liberals around. Seems most of them just work as pundits.

But I don't realy think it's all that avoidable. The Democrats' position on this seems to shift with the sentiment of the population.
The problem is that the population is scared and misinformed at this point about this issue. And the Crats are taking advantage.
It's the Democrat version of the way this Iraq War was started!

A real liberal response is not to cave and try to end free trade, but to transform our programs in such a way as that they cushion people from the horrors of globalization- thus easing their anxiety, getting them by, getting them on to the new jobs, and overall maintaining security while reaping the rewards of participation in the global economy.

I think we should do more to ensure free trade does not lead to exploitation... but ending free trade does not help us or the people in other countries!

But it seems to me we're stuck with two extremes: the "MNCs can do whatever the hell they want" branch of Republicans and the isolationist branch of Democrats... Everyone else in politics just seems to sway with the wind.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Andaras View Post
JP5, it sounds like you don't like democracy, perhaps you would prefer no Congress and just having the President by himself with absolute authority? Don't deny it, all Conservatives love flirting with authoritarianism.
You obviously did not read the WSJ article. The Dems have set us back from the way ALL presidents have conducted Fair Trade agreements forever. So, when Clinton, Carter and all the lib presidents were doing it......were we "flirting with authoritarianism???
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JP5 View Post
But you're obviously not paying attention. The bill DID just that! Right now, Colombia gets to send their goods in here free of any tariffs. The bill says they continue, BUT we get the same thing---no tariffs going into THEIR country on OUR products. THAT makes it a level playing field. THAT makes it fair.
someone is not paying attention ... or possibly, can't keep up.
the colombians send their products to the USA tariff free and the USA producers send their products to colombia tariff free. i get it. that is free trade. what i want - and hopefully the demos agree - is FAIR trade. how fair is it to our domestic producers of widgets if they have to incur environmental compliance costs to operate their facilities and also pay the wage and benefits rates established with its union for its labor, while their colombian widget competitors do not have to incur those environmental costs and higher wages because colombia does not impose environmental standards nor does it tolerate labor unions? while the trade may be FREE of tariffs it is not a FAIR exchange because both widget vendors are not playing on a level playing field.
i believe - at least i hope - the democrats are holding this agreement up until we can level the playing field so that our American businesses (and their employees) can remain competitive. by failing to do this under NAFTA, my region's textile, furniture and telecommunications industries were devestated; we gave our market to the foreign competition and allowed them to exploit a comparitive advantage resulting from disparity in wage and environmental restriction imposed domestically which costs were not incurred by the off shore competitors. we should learn from that NAFTA mistake
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JP5 View Post
But you're obviously not paying attention. The bill DID just that! Right now, Colombia gets to send their goods in here free of any tariffs. The bill says they continue, BUT we get the same thing---no tariffs going into THEIR country on OUR products. THAT makes it a level playing field. THAT makes it fair.
1) Its not fair if one side subsides their industry.
2) I am all for fast track authority.
3) I don't know why you are bringing up congressional procedures, when I recall that you were all in favor of the "nuclear option". Sounds like a FLIP-FLOP to me.

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