Iraq at odds with US over troop presence beyond 2008 - Page 3

Sadistic-Savior · #21 (**permalink**) 06-05-2008, 07:26 AM

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Me: So far they have not done that and seem unlikely to do it in the foreseeable future.

That surge is working just fine!

Glad we agree.

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Me: Ultimately, you are hoping for problems (IMO) because you have nothing to gain politically from success in Iraq. You are yearning for an opportunity to say "I told you so" and motivate America to embrace your liberal nanny-state/appeasement ideology.

I want to say "Grandson this is when America Regained its Glory"

And you would consider the Democrats regaining power as America regaining it's glory.

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The fact is, Iraq is an independent nation and if their new government want our troops out, they have every right after 2008 to deport our troops out of their country.

They have they right already. They don't have to wait until after 2008.

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We must wake up to the reality that Iran will have influence and economic power in Iraq.

They have as much power and influence as the Iraqis decide to give them. That is acceptable to me.

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It is inevitable and we are already seeing signs that we are no long welcomed in Iraq by the people nor the government.

Then why havnt their elected representatives kicked us out yet?

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So if you support the idea of democracy, you support the idea of the representatives of the Iraqi people deciding if they wish to remain occupied by US troops or not.

Yes. So far they have not asked us to leave. In fact, just the opposite.

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I believe that Iraq still needs U.S. presence, but it is totally their option after 2008.

It is totally their option right now.

junjobx2199 · #22 (**permalink**) 06-05-2008, 10:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior

Glad we agree.

And you would consider the Democrats regaining power as America regaining it's glory.

They have they right already. They don't have to wait until after 2008.

They have as much power and influence as the Iraqis decide to give them. That is acceptable to me.

Then why havnt their elected representatives kicked us out yet?

Yes. So far they have not asked us to leave. In fact, just the opposite.

It is totally their option right now.

I don’t think there’s a post or response that you couldn’t answer back right or wrong! We will never agree on anything. The Surge was to allow for Iraqi governmental reconciliation, so it is NOT Working dude! The aspect of American troops deaths attached to the surge is marginal at best. Any American deaths in this region are unacceptable at any rate!

This is exactly what I meant when I suggested that the Surge and Potential withdrawal or draw down dates set based on political progress that was promised meant nothing. They will keep changing what the surge is truly for , they will say there’s tons of progress on the political/Governmental front when there is none and now the latest news is Bush is going to Lock us in Iraq forever with this executive agreement to have an American presence in Iraq forever! 10 + bases and corporations can operate outside of U.S. law. The New world order has come. They can’t get away with it on American soil so they have decided to carry out their corporate self-serving plans on an unsuspecting foreign land.

P.S. Before you ask for me to go fetch you a link . Go look for it yourself!

MrRelevant · #23 (**permalink**) 06-05-2008, 11:13 AM

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Originally Posted by junjobx2199

I don’t think there’s a post or response that you couldn’t answer back right or wrong! We will never agree on anything. The Surge was to allow for Iraqi governmental reconciliation, so it is NOT Working dude! The aspect of American troops deaths attached to the surge is marginal at best. Any American deaths in this region are unacceptable at any rate!

This is exactly what I meant when I suggested that the Surge and Potential withdrawal or draw down dates set based on political progress that was promised meant nothing. They will keep changing what the surge is truly for , they will say there’s tons of progress on the political/Governmental front when there is none and now the latest news is Bush is going to Lock us in Iraq forever with this executive agreement to have an American presence in Iraq forever! 10 + bases and corporations can operate outside of U.S. law. The New world order has come. They can’t get away with it on American soil so they have decided to carry out their corporate self-serving plans on an unsuspecting foreign land.

P.S. Before you ask for me to go fetch you a link . Go look for it yourself!

Just last week there was a conference ,remember about 100 countries?

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, who co-chaired the conference with Maliki, was upbeat about the progress Iraq has made.

"Indeed, notable progress has been made in all three pillars of the (International) Compact -- in the security, political and economic fields, despite the challenges," said Ban in his opening speech.

I mean you speak almost as if you dont follow any current events regarding Iraq but I know that couldnt be the case.

Sadistic-Savior · #24 (**permalink**) 06-05-2008, 11:18 AM

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The Surge was to allow for Iraqi governmental reconciliation, so it is NOT Working dude!

The purpose of the surge was to increase security so that reconciliation could take palce. The surge is functioning as intended.

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The aspect of American troops deaths attached to the surge is marginal at best. Any American deaths in this region are unacceptable at any rate!

I dont recall anyone claiming that the surge would completely halt all American deaths. Do you have a source to the contrary?

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They will keep changing what the surge is truly for

How did you determine what the surge is "truely for"? Source please.

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they will say there’s tons of progress on the political/Governmental front when there is none and now the latest news is Bush is going to Lock us in Iraq forever with this executive agreement to have an American presence in Iraq forever!

Bush doesnt have the power to lock us into any agreement forever, even if he wanted to do so. The President is not a King.

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10 + bases and corporations can operate outside of U.S. law.

Please name some of them and explain how you know that they operate outside of our laws.

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The New world order has come.

Not yet. But its getting closer.

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They can’t get away with it on American soil so they have decided to carry out their corporate self-serving plans on an unsuspecting foreign land.

That foreign land can stop them any time it wants to. Iraq is truely sovereign now. Assuming that the Iraqi government wanted to kick the corporations out, explain to me what you believe the Corporations could do to stop them.

The corporations are not governments. They are not militaries. They have no real power. They can do nothing we (or the Iraqis) do not allow them to do.

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P.S. Before you ask for me to go fetch you a link . Go look for it yourself!

If you are making the claim, you are expected to provide the evidence to support it. It isnt my job to find evidence to support your claims.

You are not correct by default.

BuckNaked · #25 (**permalink**) 06-10-2008, 07:53 AM

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Cmon now buck,dont crap out now…. I apologize for accusing you of not seeing the clear progress but Im left to wonder why youd like see the military leave now that weve got the upper hand and the Iraqis solidly on their way.

See this is the intellectual dishonesty that has caused/allowed this profiteering venture to go on as long as it has been drawn out, and on and on and on. My OP was concerning the fact that it appears Iraq is not as satisfied with the way things are moving along. They are no longer going along with what is best for the U.S. and are finally standing up for themselves, in the only way they can. Why is that do you suppose?

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Youre being armchair Qb again.

Yes I can see how looking at things from a different angle, clearly assessing the situation, and/or even changing the failed game plan might confuse a cheerleader, but sometimes ya have to step back and reevaluate, yes even accept failures and losses, and implement some realistic goals.

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To say there was there was no planning is naive.Chain of command issues and conflicts of interests compunded the problems with the plans they had.

Reciting the obvious, eh? If by Chain of command and conflict of interest, you are referring to the main existing problem, the president and his staff, then yes we agree. The president set down benchmarks last year that Iraq had better pull their own weight and conform to by last summer, but they went on vacation instead and left all the dirty work to our soldiers. As of yet, another year later, they are still ignoring those requests, and have not even addressed 2/3 rd of these demands. Wonder why?

If that doesn’t hint get the hell out, I really don’t know what would? If ya told your wife to stop drinking and running around on ya, and she popped a bottle, and threw a string of rubbers over her shoulder as she headed for the door, I suppose you would not take her seriously either?

They have called Bush on his bluff, and that is all it was, a bluff. He had/has no intention of leaving Iraq, it was simply a ploy to get more money allocated and it worked. Right now in this final quarter of the game with no time outs he is trying to repair his good name & protect his legacy, before his time runs out. Nothing else matters at this point, if anything ever did, except the profit margin. Iraqis are not cooperating with the security plan, and they appear to be holding out until time is and has run out. Can you not see this?

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Of course now everybody can list out the mistakes and their consequences.Things as basic as ROEs werent properly formulated until the last few years.Id say your assertion that the mistakes were actually purposely implimented to benefit corperations certianly should be supported by some facts,no?

Since it is your assertion perhaps you could provide a reference to suit yourself? The fact is that our government leaders are/were so busy facilitating profiteering ventures, with they’re giddy/greedy souls blinded by dollar signs, they wound up taking their eyes off the ball! Mistakes were made and the "more money mentality", resulted in maximum profits for them and their peers. Follow the money! What other proof needs to be outlined for you? They did and are doing everything in their power to prolong the effort, when ever possible, changing the goals with whichever way the wind happens to be blowing on that particular day to justify the means. They clearly didn’t go into it with a sound plan for victory, unless of course profits = victory in this case!

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Its a fact that when given the opportunity most beneficiaries of govt assets will often abuse the system if possible sadly but to tie it into one govt wide/corporate American conspiracy needs some factual backing IMHO.

Its no different with the folks who get the earmarks or welfare receipients...milking the sugar daddy govt.IMO there should be stricter watchdogs for all govt funding,esp massive war funding,even as a republican Im for investigations to find the culprits,and sanctioning them harshly.

That is an understatement of the highest magnitude!

As of Nov 2007, of the $610 billion appropriated, Congressional Research Service estimates that Iraq will receive about $450 billion and that the monthly obligations associated with the Iraq war are now at $7.4 billion, or $246 million a day.

Clearly U.S. soldiers aren't getting rich and the wounded and veterans aren't getting what they need. Clearly the Iraqi people aren't the winners. In fact, Iraq's infrastructure isn't anywhere near where it was under Saddam. Electricity, water distribution and purification and sewage treatment are all still rudimentary or non-existent.

So where the heck are all the dollars going?

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