I think your evaluation of Raina's evaluation is off slightly. In my judgement, it isn't a "Catch22" because if "They" would "stop pulling the Trigger" (a viable option that would benefit ALL involved) the "cycle of Violence" would end and the situation would be resolved.

Your alternative response, "How about we shouldn't have been there in the first place to begin this cycle of events", is NOT EVEN an "Option"! So Raina's evaluation is Eons beyond your's as a means of resolution.

Dont'cha think so?

I don't think so Utah. In fact I will continue to stand behind the fact that this war should not have been the war we got involved in at this time and not in this way. We were not prepared to fight this war, nor were we warranted to do so at this time. We had no plan for peace, and no plan for getting out once the major combat ended. This war should have been fought, but not directly following 9/11 as a pseudo-response to terrorism.

It astounds me that you would present such a simplisiticly inane excuse for not supporting your accusations in the face of the testimony of someone who asserts to have a First Hand Experience that contradicts your allegations!

crucial-fiction
However LogoSoco. Your comment DOES remain totally consistent with previous inanities of yours.

You can stand behind your beliefs all you want. However, we aren't discussing AGAIN about whether we should or should not have gone to war. We are talking about WHY we are STILL there.

__________________
Of all ignorance, the ignorance of the educated is the most dangerous.
Thomas Sowell, 2004

Again, I have to agree in essence with some of your last comment. But I'm still going to "NitPick"!

My initial contention is that Raina's statement is not a "Catch22". I think that is evident since there IS a path of action that would result in a resolution of the situation. So this doesn't match Alan Arkin's unresovable problem back in 1970.

Next I think that I could live with your statement, as long as expanding your reasons behind it did not violate any of my own reasons for us to be there.

Considering the situation over there right now, I have GOT to agree with this statement.
The subsequent phrase pertaining to whether the war was "warranted" at this time is still debatable I think. I am open to both yes and no, depending on expansion of the definition of the phrase.

I would change your word "No" to "a substantially flawed" and then agree with you wholeheartedly!!

I disagree with the use of "Pseudo-Response". I think it is a BIG PICTURE element of our response to terrorism. I believe that the war has a significant effect on the thinking of governments around the world, such as Libya and Syria who have actively supported Terrorism.

Whether that is justification enough to have invaded Iraq when we did, I have real doubts about.
I think there is much more to it than that. But That isn't the topic of the thread right now.

Amazing how two incendiary individuals, such as ourselves, can rationally discuss a subject, and even voice agreement, when "absolutes" are left out of our statements!!! I enjoy that.

War in essence is a Catch22 in my opinion, but I'll keep that to myself, as I can see, you don't see my point of view on this.

I won't go into detail, but I would like to stress that I am not for pulling out of this war until the peace is restored, and I don't dissagree that Saddam should have been removed from power.

The reason I stated that the war was not warranted, is based on my thinking that there was never a direct threat to our nation from Iraq. They did not attack us, and thus there was no real reason to begin the war the way we did, in my opinion of course.

No, no...you are right. I shouldn't have said we went there with no plan for peace or a plan for getting out. I'm sure that we had a plan going in, but I wonder as to how realistic the vision was...if it was anywhere close to how realistic the cost was, I think we were doomed from the start.

I stand firm on this point. I honestly feel that Bush used Terrorism, and 9/11 to provide a need for this war in Iraq even though they had nothing to do with 9/11 or any terrorist attack toward the US. I don't agree that it is part of a big picture, because from the beginning this war on terror and the war on Iraq were two separate issues. Bush is the one trying to tie the two together. I think that other countries might be affraid that Bush will attack them for any reason at all. I just don't agree with putting fear in countries at the cost of innocent lives is the way to go about this.

You are right, that is not the topic at hand here. I'll get off that for now.

If you can believe it, I've even had moments where I agreed with Catz. Based on this weeks episodes with her and I, (which I appologize to everyone who had to suffer through reading), that would be hard to believe I'm sure. But I agree it is nice when there is at least something people can agree upon, though you and I have agreed on other issues before as I remember. I hope that there are other issues in the future.

I've read numerous times on these threads, and elsewhere, the liberals'
assertions that we're wasting lives and resources trying to help a bunch of people who hate Americans, and want us to leave, and that the war in Iraq has nothing to do with the war against terrorism.

In fact, most of our military and civilian people there see indications, on a daily basis, that the great majority of the Iraqi people appreciate what we are doing there. The other day,in the city of Najaf, an estimated 1000 people finally worked up enough courage to stage a protest demonstration against the insurgent leader, al Sadr. This is a huge step in the right direction, and I believe that it's only the beginning. Iraq is taking its first baby-steps toward becoming a country where the people will attain the right of self-determination, and enjoy the benefits of capitalism.

I believe that if the above gets achieved, the world will be taking its first baby-steps in the war against terrorism.

__________________
http://www.freedomswatch.org/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

When religion ruled the world...wasn't that the Dark Ages?

As a result of all this, there is a group of Muslims who DO recognize that George and Bill's excellent adventure points out that an extremist terrorist organization from within the Muslim community is damaging Islam. Check out their website:

http://www.freemuslims.org/

__________________
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)