What do you all think about nationalization of the energy sector? (oil, natural gas, gas, electricity- coal and nuclear, etc...)

I'm for it, for many reasons, but I'd like to see where you all stand before I jump up on my soap box

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"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy

Yet another silly idea coming out of the Peoples Republic of California. (By the way, I'm from CA; as far FROM it as I can get!)

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"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work." -- Irving Kristol

Do some research on the National Energy Plan. While it's not nationalisation, per se, it's probably as close to it as one could get in a free-market. The results weren't pretty and the bitterness about it exists to this day, almost 30 years later.

I'm talking about true nationalization, not the half-assed verion of socialism that we've tried before.

It is examples like that that give socialization a bad name, democrats have compromised on the plans, but in the end they fail, because they not comprehensive enough to be effective.

Much like health care. We have all kinds of programs and subsidies for health-care, but the system still fails completely. Our technology and facilities are adequate, and there is plenty of money going into the proverbial healthcare pot, but it still fails....you have to go all the way with it, from the ground up, or it will inevitibly fail - when you mix the words "profit" into a socialization concept, there is nothing but failure to be obtained.

I'm not against profit, but there are few (very few) sectors that should be nationalized

__________________
"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy

I'm with ya.

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"I think the deregulation was probably helpful to the growth of our economy."
-Sen. John McCain 09/22/2008

Why not?

Because a complete collapse of the energy sector would be against the public good. The problem with "true" nationalization is that the government owns and operates everything in the nationalized sector. The government then has absolutely no incentive to minimize costs or maximize efficiency because they aren't running the industry for a profit. The industry eventually becomes so sluggish and inefficient that it collapses. The price of the goods provided rises far above what it would be if the industry wasn't nationalized, and the taxpayers are forced to provide the money that the government then wastes.

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"It is extremely difficult for our contemporaries to conceive of the conditions of free banking because they take government interference with banking for granted and as necessary"

-- Ludwig von Mises

That's a slippery slope argument = logical fallacy = not worthy of a response

__________________
"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy

And that's a red herring fallacy.

Address the argument. What would give the government incentive to minimize costs and to meet the market demand?

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"It is extremely difficult for our contemporaries to conceive of the conditions of free banking because they take government interference with banking for granted and as necessary"

-- Ludwig von Mises

Dude!?

What is the incentive behind natural gas shortages - thus skyrocketing heating costs - in the nothern states every winter?


What is the current incentive to minimize costs? - profit. Does that lower costs for the consumer? no

__________________
"For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future."
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth"
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK

Knight Errant of the Simian Order
Truth - Justice - Comedy

I don't know about nationalization of the industries... I don't see an advantage.
Idealistically I'd like to see the socialization of natural resources, but still see industry itself as private-owned (most likely it would work better to just tax "owners" for natural resource value... similar to a land value tax) because no one should actually own things that are not products of human labor- but should own the finished products they make from them.
But realistically I don't see anything happening like that.

It looks to me like nationalization is often misused to artificially reduce fuel costs, which will only increase consumption and make the whole problem worse.

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"Man lives in the sunlit world of that which he believes to be reality. But unseen by most is an underworld, a place that is just as real... but not as brightly lit... A DARK SIDE!"
-opening from Tales From the Darkside