...at least by the neocon definition of the word...

The adminstration has agreed to pursue a withdrawal timeline.

(*)(*)(*)(*) cut and run neocons!!!

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"If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible, who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time, who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer."

--President-elect Barack Obama
November 5, 2008

Its not Surrender since it leaves Elements of US Forces in Iraq for the foresable future.

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"True Freedom is the Freedom to oppress others"

Ideology: Self Preservation.

Same sort of plan others have posited before, which Bush (and all his little neocon pals) called "surrender."

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"If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible, who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time, who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer."

--President-elect Barack Obama
November 5, 2008

Actually it's amusing to see how many times they can say it isn't an absolute timeframe and will be adaptable to conditions on the ground.

But nobody wanted to stay there at full troop levels forever. And this is the Iraqis wanting us out because they think they can handle the situation now. If we actually can get out on mutually agreed terms between us and the Iraqi government and they can handle it afterwards it means that we won.

Even after it happens I imagine some minds will simply be unable to accept the idea of the Iraq war ending well. Or the concept of victory in Iraq.

I agree with that!

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If it was that easy, everyone would do it.

Perhaps you can source that, if that is true then they were BSing keeping hundred thousands troops there for any longer then a few years is idiotic. Having a Quick response force and special forces with Air support to back up Iraqs army is all that would be needed.

__________________
"True Freedom is the Freedom to oppress others"

Ideology: Self Preservation.

...a plan Obama agrees with, and McCain (and his neocon apologists on the forum) are calling "surrender."

__________________
"If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible, who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time, who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer."

--President-elect Barack Obama
November 5, 2008

It's hard to believe that you would have to agree to terms for leaveing. If someone wants you to go don't you just leave? There isn't a lot that you need to agree with. You just pack up your (*)(*)(*)(*) and hit the road.

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Bill Ayers for Secretary of Education
The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it. Abbie Hoffman
Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man. Imagine all the people Sharing all the world. John Lennon
I've been smiling lately, dreaming about the world as one. And I believe it could be someday it's going to come. Cat Stevens
Member: Bottom feeders Local 101

So let me get this straight.

We have basically won in Iraq, and now afterward we are surrendering? Is that even a possible reality? How do ou surrender, after you have won? Riddle me that one Batman.

Bush has always said, we will win in Iraq and stay there as long as it takes. Evidently the day is coming to where we can come home.

That should be celebrated, not used as some stupid political horsecrap, from Democrats, who have told us time and time again that the war is lost and there was no way to win it.

This is akin to the pessimistic player on the team saying in a nailbiter "we are going to lose", while the rest of the team continues on fighting hard to win, while wanting to slap the pessimist upside the head, for giving up on his team when they are about to win. Point is, after the team has won, the rest of the team celebrates as the pessimistic kid keeps talking about how they still could have lost, never getting that that is not reality and that they actually won. Exact same thing here.

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If I had the option of voting 2000 and 2004 over again, I would still vote Bush.

Wow, nice diplomatic realtions that would result in...lol. Hey see ya later man, good luck with the everything. Is that how you treat friends?

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If I had the option of voting 2000 and 2004 over again, I would still vote Bush.