My nation has its problems too Catz. However they are not comparable to the US. Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, although I have a sarcastic way of speaking. But the way I see it, the US is the promised land for those with money. And you are totally right, my nation hasn't got that much millionaires as the US. We tax our millionaires more. By doing that we can spread the money so that the low income groups also get a fair chance of success.

Look, what's the point of having people like Gates when in the projects nobody will ever have a chance to go to university? What's the point of having millionaires when a lot of people can't even get a health insurance? What's the point of the luxury that Beverly Hills provides when a few blocks further there lies a different world called "Ramona Gardens"?

Be honest to your self. You are privileged, so am I, but I like to see other people get a fair chance as well. Be honest to your self. Does a black guy from the projects have the same opportunity of a better life as some guy from Beverly Hills? Because where I come from, all income classes have the same chance.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, this is just how I see it.

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They know... Saddam Hussein is no threat to the US. But at some point he might decide if he had a nuclear weapon to use it against Israel. Gen.W.Clark

Translation: I prefer to criticize your country, versus talk openly about the failures of my own.

Catz

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I'll get nicer when you get smarter.

This board is owned and run by a private entity that has the right to allow and dis-allow any speech it sees fit.

Fair enough?

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The last time this country mixed politics with religion, people got burned at the stake.

When will they get around to yours? Perhaps they are starting with the "a"s..

you show your glaringly obvious lack of knowledge of life in the US.

I know no one, not one single person in my family or circle of friends who came from anything more than a lower middle class background. Yet I could name dozens of people between family and friends and myself who make a VERY good living...many of which would be in the top 10% of wage earners. They got there by working hard and going to school. The government provides grants to those who can't afford it and ANYONE can get a school loan. If you work hard in school you can go to college. Simple.

Because you are wrong, those in the "projects" do have a chance to go to college. It happens all the time. One of my best friends was born in Cabrini Greens Chicago (spelling), joined the Marines, got free school as a result, and now works for a life insurance company. It's anecdotal, but it happens. And what is Ramona Gardens? What tv show did you get this from? I suspect 90% of your education was derived by sitting in front of your Sony.

You seem to have a totally distorted image of the United States.

I am 63 years old. I therefore have considerable EXPERIENCE with the "problems" of living in the United States. I also have SOME experience with living in other countries: Israel, England, and Japan.
As one citizen among approx. 300,000,000 I do NOT see what "Problems" you seem to imagine are rampant here?!?!?!?
Do we have Poverty? Yes, but it is NOT comparable to "Poverty" in MOST of the rest of the world. Our "Poor" would rank ABOVE the majority of other country's "Middle Class". And our "Poor" have unlimited avenues to improve their condition. Our society values and rewards effort and determination. It punishes laziness and surrender. That is why some succeed and others don't. The Opportunities are there for all. It is up to the individual to set his/her own limits.

Do we have Crime???
Yes. Not on the scale that YOU seem to envision. But we DO have a lot of crime. That is the INEVITABLE price you pay for allowing your citizens to have FREEDOM!!!!! The are FREE to do what they choose UNTIL they choose something that harms society....ergo, CRIME!

First, we didn't "HAVE" a Bill Gates until Bill Gates expended the tremendous effort and determination it took for him to succeed!! He did not start out a Billionaire! Only a middle class student with an IDEA! And the will and drive to implement his "Idea"! If the Opportunities had not been there, you probably would NOT have the means to condemn the U.S. right now~! If there are no rewards (achieving wealth and ease) for Excelling, no one will Excell! And the forward progress of civilization will halt.

We "TAX" our millionaires more also! More, percentage and dollar wise than the lower income citizens. So you are off base with THAT assumption.

But if you take the rewards from those who actually PRODUCE in your society and give them to those that choose NOT to produce, your are eliminating ALL incentive for ANYONE to produce! Then you must empower a dictatorial government to FORCE everyone to produce, as Communist China, North Korea, and the Soviet Union had to do!!! You have then lowered the standard of living for ALL! And you have eliminated the chances of growth. You must have noticed that even China has recognized the need for individual entrepenuers and individual rewards?? They have been, and still are, slowly modifying their system more along the road to individual rewards. You CAN get rich in China!!!

Every American has MORE than a "Fair Chance" to move up the ladder of attainment and "privilege". Including "Blacks in the projects"! It might take MORE work, sacrifice, and effort than some kid born to wealthy parents in Beverly Hills. But the "Opportunities" are there! After all, that is probably how those "Rich Parents in Beverly Hills" got RICH in the first place!!! Hard Work, Determination, Effort! How about Oprah? How about Bill Cosby? How about Denzel Washington? How about Muhammad Ali? How about Martin Luther King? Those people sure as Hell did not have anything "handed to them" the way YOU suggest should happen!

I repeat. Actually LEARN something about the U.S. and it's culture and society before you condemn it.

Actually, No - With the exception of BC and Alberta, medical is paid through Big Businesses who make over $200 000 a year. They pay 1.95% of their groos annual earnings

In BC and Alberta, yes people pay approx $50 a month for medical, but only if they make over approx $25 000. Most companies, however flip the bill, and if you can't pay or haven't paid you are never denied.

I work at a payroll software company in Canada, that's how I know. As an American living in this country, I can say with full certainty - Americans are dreaming if they think they have it good as good as Canadians when it comes to medical. People need to quit accepting the 'Status Quo" in this department

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Truth is by nature self-evident, as soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear. Gandhi

It's true that poor people in the US are better off than their colleagues in nations like Vietnam, Liberia or Brazil, however they definitely have it worse than the low-income groups in Europe. That was my point.

So what you say is that crime is the price of freedom. I do not see it that way. First of all, I do not call owning a gun freedom, I call it damaging for society and to be honest I do not see how a government whose people obviously can not act responsible with a gun still allows it. I am totally free, I feel no oppression at all, yet I do not have a gun nor do my fellow countrymen.

Actually I meant "more than you." Our systems tax millionaires more than the US does.

Off course it's true that the incentives to produce will decrease when there is no money to be made. But I'm not talking about a society without class, where everybody earns the same lousy 1500 euros. Rewards are good. I am a right wing conservative capitalist my self by our standards (not by your standards). However, it's the amount of reward that I dare to question.

We tax our millionaires more, but still they stay with us, that is because we all believe in the pillars of the social democratic welfare state and the economic process that is linked with that ideology. And our millionaires/factory owners know that the money will eventually come back to them. See, by spreading the money around we can "activate" low income groups so they can consume and that has a beneficial effect on the economy.

Give a billionaire an extra euro and he will put it in his safe or invest it in some far away nation, however, give a factory worker an extra euro and he will immediately buy something with it and therefore stimulate a healthy economy.

If you ever find the time, do some research about the economies in Scandinavia, it's not that bad as you think. It's pretty good actually. Don't think that there is no money to be made because of the high taxes, that's superficial. Money always comes back.

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They know... Saddam Hussein is no threat to the US. But at some point he might decide if he had a nuclear weapon to use it against Israel. Gen.W.Clark

I contend that the "Poor" in the U.S. are better off than the "Poor" in such places as China, N. Korea, Vietnam, those bastions of Communist Equality where the claim is that there are NO "Poor"!
As far as Europe, I think that you are totally wrong in your assessment. You seem to have changed the focus to comparison of the "Poor" in the U.S. versus the "Low Income" groups in Europe. Not necessarily Apples to Apples. But even if we are comparing the same class, it is a totally SUBJECTIVE appraisal! And I think "Subjectively" you are wrong. It still appears that your criteria for judgement is coming from movies and TV shows.


You make it sound like a "Government" should be the Master of the people it serves, making decisions for them, whether they like it or not, on the assumption that they are too ignorant to make the decisions themselves. That is not the way it works in the U.S. Our Government is the Servant of the People and serves at the sufferance of the people. It is expected to carry out the Will of the People it serves. The people of the United States, through the various means available, have served notice to the Government that we do not, at this time, want the CHOICE to own a gun abridged. Freedom isn't the ACT of owning a gun, just as you say. Instead, the CHOICE to own or not own a gun is the Freedom we have.

There are millions of firearms in the United States, in private citizens hands. I do not know the exact statistics, but I say that 99% of those gun owners are responsible people and do NOT use their guns in an unlawful manner. Instead of punishing ALL potential gun owners by outlawing guns, we choose to punish that small minority who MISUSE their freedom.

That is the mainstay of a Free Society. We are FREE to make our own choices independent of the Government. If our individual choice violates the standards dictated by the society as a whole, the individual is punished. But he is NOT "Punished" BEFORE he violates the Law.
So YES. "Crime", the bad choices made by a minority of the citizens, IS the price we have chosen to pay for our FREEDOM of choice. And it must be a (*)(*)(*)(*) good way of doing things because our society, in it's short 200+ years of existence has been the most productive, in terms of the public benefit, in the history of the world. And many others have followed our example, adding or subtracting based on their own cultures. But ours works best for US!

The "Amount" of the reward?? Thus you would have a coterie of individuals Judging what is "Appropriate", based NOT on what the individual is able to accomplish, but instead on whether this ELITE group of people believes is excessive?!?!?!? You have placed God Like powers in the hands of ordinary humans. Not a good Idea. Instead, let the SOCIETY, through it's freedom of CHOICE, dictate the heights to which a person can succeed. It may be slower. But it is DEFINITELY FAIRER! A word that I know you appreciate. Give everyone the same opportunities to succeed, guard those opportunities through government monitoring, but do NOT prevent an individual from succeeding beyond the norm through his own abilities, simply because OTHERS are not willing to exert the same sacrifices and efforts. That is our philosophy and it has stood us in good stead for over 200 years. In your Utopia, there is a ceiling. I do not see that as good. Not for the successes. And definitely not for the failures! Without failure, you cannot have success. If someone is prevented from failing by limiting the success of others, the failures will NEVER have an incentive to suceed.

FREEDOM is the key.

In my 40+ years of business, I have known and worked closely with people from all over the world, INCLUDING most of the countries in Scandinavia. The Scandinavians, very intelligent, ambitious, educated, and hard working, without exception, rejected as excessive, the restrictions placed on them by their country's Socialist society and government. Admittedly, they had experienced life in the U.S. and were obviously comparing how the fared over here versus how they lived at home. So they may have been biased toward the U.S. ........Well now, that's exactly what we are talking about, isn't it?!?!?!?

I have never met a Scandinavian, that had lived in the U.S. who preferred the system in their home country over the U.S. And that covers 40 years of experience. I have had similar reactions from Brits with whom I worked, although not as unanimously as Scandinavians. Also Israelis, Japanese, Indians, Vietnamese, Taiwanese, Chinese, and one Belgian.

Overall, I would hazard a guess that most people who came, lived, and worked in this country would choose to stay if given the chance. Not UNANIMOUSLY, but most.

Just my opinion based on experience.

I intentionally didn't used the word "poor" in the case of Europe. Especially in nations like Sweden, one cannot speak of poor people. One can only speak of "low income groups." Look, believe it or not, but in a nation like Sweden every citizen can have a health insurance, send their kids to the university, afford decent housing etcetera.

I think you are mistaking. Government must sometimes take measures to protect its citizens against themselves. You make it sound like the US government doesn't do that and that it is a typical European or communist thing. It's not, protecting your citizens against themselves and restricting freedom to ensure the freedom and safety of others is what every good government must do. Your government does it too. For instance, you can't buy liquor in the US if you're younger than 21. You see? Just an example of your government restricting your freedom to protect minors from the dangers of alcohol.

Look at your society and compare it to a random European nation. What have all these firearms brought you besides massive bloodshed? Are you so afraid of your fellow countrymen that you need a gun? I just don't see what the right to carry fire arms has to do with freedom. Is it for protection? Don't you have police for that?

Look at the UK, an nation that is very comparable to the US, but people are not shot all the time.

Do you think that we are not free? Do you really think that for instance Dutch, German or French people actually all want to have guns, but the government doesn't let them??? Look. we have free elections, just like you. If we want guns, we would start a party and vote for that party. But we just don't want those (*)(*)(*)(*) guns. They bring nothing more than misery. We know exactly how our society would look like if we allowed guns. We all seen, read and heard about the situation in the US. Believe me, we're not jealous. Bowling for Colimbine was an eye opener as well.

No. I really don't see the point of letting someone like Bill Gates have a fifty billion bank account when millions others can't afford health insurance. We let our people grow too. We have millionaires too. But no European has fifty billions. Having someone in your nation who is worth fifty billion while millions can't afford to have a health insurance is not something to be proud of, it's something to be ashamed of. This is not freedom, this is tyranny of the rich! How ca you be proud of something like that. That's a disgrace. I'm considered a right wing conservative capitalist in my nation, but even I have my limits.

I am not saying we have to prevent someone from succeeding beyond the norm. As I said, Europe is not some peasant society. We have everything you guys have, however, if one grows beyond the norm he has to contribute more to the society. This is the definition of fairness.


Well, that's a pretty weird way of looking at society. I don't share your view. Define success. What is success? As I said, we don't have fifty billion Dollar men like Bill Gates. But we have plenty of millionaires, a lot of major global businesses like Shell, BP, Philips, Heiniken, Nokia etc. Aren't they successful?

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They know... Saddam Hussein is no threat to the US. But at some point he might decide if he had a nuclear weapon to use it against Israel. Gen.W.Clark