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Truth is by nature self-evident, as soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear. Gandhi

I think issues like "Ethnic Cleansing", "Genocide", and "Cultural Extermination" all revolve around a very unpleasant fact about being human. These kinds of things have been a key part of social development/order around the world and throughout history. There is absolutely no indication this kind of thing will ever end either because, under the right set of circumstances, anyone would join in a wholesale slaughter of another race/class/religion/ect.....

Part of being an "Enlightened" society is understanding who we are and almost every nation/culture in the world today has benefited in some way by genocide of others in the past.

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The Science of Brute Force......

Tricky.

That is a very heart-warming way of looking at it, thanks

'Part of being an "Enlightened" society' is understanding and appreciating the different peoples and cultures within it, not destroying what you dont understand.

Are you saying that there's such a thing as 'necessary and beneficial genocide'?

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"The key to immortality is living a life worth remembering"

Yes

Although it is abhorrent it is also necessary and beneficial.

I am not endorsing this kind of behavior generally speaking with any sort of enthusiasm and will certainly not defend individual atrocities or the criminals who perpetrate them.

What I am saying is there is a point to this. There is a lot more going on than simple cultural differences. No one, bar a full blown sociopath, would idly take up arms against their neighbors with the intent of extermination. There is a point of critical mass when this kind of action becomes acceptable to fairly rational John Q. Public. That is why our collective human history involves a lot of genocide.

P.S. I have never been accused of being the "Soft and Fluffy" type.

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The Science of Brute Force......

hmm........different way of looking at it.

I agree that genocide is an action of the brainwashed masses, the nazi-led propaganda labelling the Jews as a sub-human species thus motivating Germany and its allies during WW2 to murder countless millions being the obvious example. But dont the people need to be susceptible to the filth they're fed to really take it on board and turn to mass-murder? The Germans, for example, were a down-trodden people after WW1, had most of their land confiscated, severe financial punishments and sanctions, worthless currency, huge unemployment etc. Hitler comes along with his racial ideology and feeds it to a public desperate for a scapegoat.....the jews (whilst at the same time returning Germany to a successful superpower). Same principle applies in Rwanda, where the Hutus were for years second class citizens compared to the Tutsis.

Are you saying its beneficial in a 'survival of the fittest' kinda way? Darwinism to the extreme? Natural selection?

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"The key to immortality is living a life worth remembering"

An extreme or even accelerated form of "Survival of the Fittest" would be a pretty accurate description.

I see you examples in a slightly different light. The masses weren't exactly "Brainwashed". I truly believe there was a certain rationality to it all which is difficult to explain in a very concise manner. So, I don't quite agree with the term "Scapegoating" either. As with any genocide there has to be a very large group of people who come to a very definite conclusion about another group of people. This kind of thing doesn't just happen without some sort of reason for it. It's not a spontaneous kind of thing. :S

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The Science of Brute Force......

What were the jews in WW2 if not scapegoats? Kristalnacht was all about scapegoating, theres no other word for it. They were targeted and blamed for the downfall of the German Empire.

And no, its not spontaneous. Centuries of mistrust often just boils to the surface, but it takes someone like Hitler\Hussein\A.N Other dictator to bring it to the surface with propaganda or powerful oratory skills. As Hitler showed, control over the minds of the masses is a powerful and dangerous thing.

Still not sure I understand where the word 'beneficial' comes into all this Tricky??

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"The key to immortality is living a life worth remembering"

The area of Mexico which was invaded by the Conquistadors has been described as having a genocide perpetrated upon the natives. On the flip side, this was a society in which slavery and human sacrifice were the norm.

Does anyone here think the natives wouldn't have perpetrated genocide on the invaders if they had that ability?

Catz

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Terrorist-Supporting Atheist Moderator.

Billy Bob: "From now on I don't want to be quoted. EVER! "

The first motto of the United States was this:

"E Pluribus Unum" - Out of Many, One

Social Order/Organization is a requirement for Social Progress. The history of the U.S. really illustrates this well and I'm sure many other examples can be made. Anyways, without a strong centralized government and a uniform society/culture to support this government there simply is no Social Order. In creating a uniform society a dominant culture emerges three things happen to subcultures:

1. Subjugation
2. Integration
3. Extermination

In my example of the U.S. all three of these situations have occurred. They are neither good nor bad things just part of the process of Social Order.

I don't like using the term "Scapegoat" because it implies "Baseless Blame" and that is simply not true. You can't drive a sociological wedge between people and have them kill each other due to simple "Propaganda". There is always a lot more to these kinds of situations.

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The Science of Brute Force......

There were 4 reasons President Bush gave to Congress and the rest of America. WMD's was one, and Humanitarian issues was indeed another. This was all stated well in advance of learning there were no WMD's to be found.

You libs seem to have a selective memory. Or is it that you're terribly narrow-minded? Nahhhhhh It must be the memory thing.

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"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)