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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:34 AM
nawbut nawbut is offline
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Default conspiracies abound

Quote:
Originally Posted by catzmeow";p=&quot View Post
The IAEA, for some reason, has recycled an old news story which seems to portray the Bush plan as incompetent. Why is that?

Catz
I dont seriously think that the IAEA or UN have conspired to try to influence the Presidential election in the US, if that is what you are suggesting. Stretching the UN-hate, anti-world thing a bit far, dont you think.

A question which might yield more in the way of relevant answers to your obvious concerns might be, 'why are certain media running such a story, at this time'. Just a suggestion.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:37 AM
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Default Doubtful.

The story was CREATED by IAEA who manufactured a press conference to dredge up a story that was covered in detail last year.

Hm. Try to think critically, for once.

Catz
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:38 AM
nawbut nawbut is offline
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Default sounding frantic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EuP";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nawbut
With child abuse?
Oh. I thought you knew this game. You call me something obviously insulting and false, and I return the favor. Isn't that why you called me a terrorist?

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Originally Posted by nawbut
I invite you, again, to refrain from making insulting references to an entire people; the Unionists of Northern Ireland.
Invitation declined, thank you.

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Originally Posted by nawbut
Think of a signature that is less offensive, please.
Or what? You'll falsely accuse me of criminal activity again? Oh, the humanity.
Simmer-down wee pet, no one is challenging you. Bidh 'do thost.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:40 AM
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Default I don't see EuP's postings as frantic, at all.

All pretense of condescension aside...

And I've been posting with him for a couple of years now...I have yet to see him frantic, and certainly not from the likes of you.

Catz
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:41 AM
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Default Just...

...catching you up. Don't be so scared.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:48 AM
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Default Created?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catzmeow";p=&quot View Post
The story was CREATED by IAEA who manufactured a press conference to dredge up a story that was covered in detail last year.

Hm. Try to think critically, for once.

Catz
I get it - the IAEA 'creates' facts, and 'manufactures' press conferences in an attempt to do...what? embarrass an already dim person?

Try not to think too critically, sometimes you get lost.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 10:56 AM
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Default No...

The IAEA manufactures a press conference on an old story with the goal of embarrassing Bush prior to the election, and adding to the portray of the bush doctrine as incompetent. The tail wagging the dog, so to speak.

Surely you can't be this obtuse and you're just being ironic, right?

Catz
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 02:39 PM
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Default .

This is not a recycled story. This is new.

catzmeow, you claim that this was "covered in detail last year" - but it was not. Can you please post a link to this "old news", and maybe some info about your alleged "manufactured press conference"? Also, can you please offer up some sort of evidence to support your allegation of an IAEA conspiracy?

For those who have not actually read the story, here is the link:
Long URL
Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished From Site in Iraq
By JAMES GLANZ, WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID E. SANGER
Published: October 25, 2004



And here is a summary of the facts:

The Timeline:

After the first Gulf War, 1991, the UN uncovered Iraq's nuclear efforts. There was a big stockpile of explosives at Al Qaqaa (a weapons facility that was also a nuclear programs site), and the IAEA was put in charge of it.

Because the explosives were considered "dual use" (they could be used in weapons, including nuclear implosion devices - but also for civilian projects like construction and mining) the IAEA did not remove them from Iraq. They were put under seal, and closely monitored.

This stockpile was not a secret. The IAEA discussed it regularly and publicly in the 6 months or so prior to the March 2003 invasion. It was inventoried during that period, and reported to the Security Council in January 2003. The US was warned repeatedly by the IAEA of the danger of the Al Qaqaa site and explosives.

Nothing was done to secure the facilities and materials during and after the invasion.

Late 2003, a few months after the invasion, the IAEA examined satellite photos of Al Qaqaa, and found that most of the bunkers there were intact or only lightly damaged. Either the explosives were still there, or if the bunkers had been emptied prior to the invasion, the explosives were likely stashed nearby. BUT, Bush would not let the IAEA back into Iraq to investigate the stockpile's status.

May 2004, Iraqi officials warned CPA head Bremer about Al Qaqaa, and how it had probably been looted. It is unknown if that warning was acted upon. Bremer is not answering his phone.

Now, earlier this month, October 2004, the head of the IAEA is pressuring the Iraqi governent to make an accounting of nuclear-related materials, including those at Al Qaqaa. Accountings are required semiannually, and neither the US or Iraq has met that obligation since early March, 2003.

On October 10, 2004, the Iraqi government responded to the IAEA. They reported that the Al Qaqaa stockpile was lost.

Then, on October 15, ten days ago, the IAEA informed the US of the Iraqi letter and the missing explosives.

As recently as YESTERDAY, looters were spotted at Al Qaqaa.



The Explosives:
(quoted directly from the article)

Quote:
American weapons experts say their immediate concern is that the explosives could be used in major bombing attacks against American or Iraqi forces: the explosives, mainly HMX and RDX, could produce bombs strong enough to shatter airplanes or tear apart buildings.

The bomb that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 used less than a pound of the same type of material, and larger amounts were apparently used in the bombing of a housing complex in November 2003 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and the blasts in a Moscow apartment complex in September 1999 that killed nearly 300 people.

The explosives could also be used to trigger a nuclear weapon, which was why international nuclear inspectors had kept a watch on the material, and even sealed and locked some of it. The other components of an atom bomb - the design and the radioactive fuel - are more difficult to obtain.

[snip]

Two weeks ago, on Oct. 10, Dr. Mohammed J. Abbas of the Iraqi Ministry of Science and Technology wrote a letter to the I.A.E.A. to say the Qaqaa stockpile had been lost. He added that his ministry had judged that an "urgent updating of the registered materials is required."

A chart in his letter listed 341.7 metric tons, about 377 American tons, of HMX, RDX and PETN as missing.

The explosives missing from Al Qaqaa are the strongest and fastest in common use by militaries around the globe. The Iraqi letter identified the vanished stockpile as containing 194.7 metric tons of HMX, which stands for "high melting point explosive," 141.2 metric tons of RDX, which stands for "rapid detonation explosive," among other designations, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, which stands for "pentaerythritol tetranitrate." The total is roughly 340 metric tons or nearly 380 American tons.

[snip]

As a measure of the size of the stockpile, one large truck can carry about 10 tons, meaning that the missing explosives could fill a fleet of almost 40 trucks.

By weight, these explosives pack far more destructive power than TNT, so armies often use them in shells, bombs, mines, mortars and many types of conventional ordinance.

"HMX and RDX have a lot of shattering power," said Dr. Van Romero, vice president for research at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, or New Mexico Tech, which specializes in explosives.

"Getting a large amount is difficult," he added, because most nations carefully regulate who can buy such explosives, though civilian experts can sometimes get licenses to use them for demolition and mining.

An Immediate Danger

A special property of HMX and RDX lends them to smuggling and terrorism, experts said. While violently energetic when detonated, they are insensitive to shock and physical abuse during handling and transport because of their chemical stability. A hammer blow does nothing. It takes a detonator, like a blasting cap, to release the stored energy.

Experts said the insensitivity made them safer to transport than the millions of unexploded shells, mines and pieces of live ammunition that litter Iraq. And its benign appearance makes it easy to disguise as harmless goods, easily slipped across borders.

"The immediate danger" of the lost stockpile, said an expert who recently led a team that searched Iraq for deadly arms, "is its potential use with insurgents in very small and powerful explosive devices. The other danger is that it can easily move into the terrorist web across the Middle East."

More worrisome to the I.A.E.A. - and to some in Washington - is that HMX and RDX are used in standard nuclear weapons design. In a nuclear implosion weapon, the explosives crush a hollow sphere of uranium or plutonium into a critical mass, initiating the nuclear explosion.

A crude implosion device - like the one that the United States tested in 1945 in the New Mexican desert and then dropped on Nagasaki, Japan - needs about a ton of high explosive to crush the core and start the chain reaction.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy";p=&quot View Post
Big news in the NY times regarding stolen explosives, yet its old news. These explosives were stolen sometime in April 2003. When our engineers found explosives they would detonate them so they
could not be used. These were stolen early in the war, probably before
our guys could get to them. But it does prove one thing. Sadam was
planning to build weapons of mass destruction. These explosives are
used to initiate the chain reaction needed in nuclear weapons, it was just a matter of time before he got the rest of the ingredients needed.
PLUS......how do we know that this isn't what Saddam loaded up in all those semi's and moved into Syria?

Another question: Why the heck didn't the IAEA destroy these wmd when they had the chance?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2004, 04:49 PM
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Default ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP5";p=&quot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy";p=&quot View Post
Big news in the NY times regarding stolen explosives, yet its old news. These explosives were stolen sometime in April 2003. When our engineers found explosives they would detonate them so they
could not be used. These were stolen early in the war, probably before
our guys could get to them. But it does prove one thing. Sadam was
planning to build weapons of mass destruction. These explosives are
used to initiate the chain reaction needed in nuclear weapons, it was just a matter of time before he got the rest of the ingredients needed.
PLUS......how do we know that this isn't what Saddam loaded up in all those semi's and moved into Syria?

Another question: Why the heck didn't the IAEA destroy these wmd when they had the chance?
Because they were not under Saddam's control

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...ves/index.html

Quote:
The explosives -- considered powerful enough to demolish buildings or detonate nuclear warheads -- were under IAEA control until the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. IAEA workers left the country before the fighting began


http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=6604094


Quote:
The IAEA has been barred from most of Iraq since the war and has watched from afar as the former nuclear sites it once monitored have been stripped by looters.

Vienna diplomats said the IAEA had cautioned the United States about the danger of the explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told U.S. officials about the need to keep them secured.
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