In every human endeavor, there are going to be boneheads, miscreants and mistakes. That doesn't make me indict the entire endeavor.

Parents have to be involved in their kids' education, and I plan to be. I probably would have raised a stink over that film -- but I would have listened to the rationale for showing it. But if it truly was presented without any context or discussion, then it was a dumb thing to do -- regardless of the merit, if any, of the film itself.

But I don't really believe in shielding kids from reality. I don't have a problem with 12-year-olds witnessing a live birth; kids of every age did so for thousands of years before houses had separate bedrooms and birth somehow became a thing to be hidden. But it should come with context.

Personally, I think if kids had any idea what moms went through to have them, they'd be more respectful....

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Man up.

OT. Did you see the story about the Florida high school chemistry teacher instructing his class on how to make bombs? Unbelievable.

I just wanted to know what I was dealing with. If you do not have children, you have no business in this discussion. You do, I think that is great, you obviously understand the ramifications of what we are discussing.

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"It aint over, till it's over"

"Put up or shut up, little man."

Why do you assume that sam is a male or small in stature moondoggie?

And Ray, I only asked glowdog to provide a link to prove that the "writing for change" program wasnot targetted at non-college students and professors. He provided a link which produced "writing assigments" from junior high students about their homosexuality.... That does not look like a collegiate program to me...

And then it turns out that the hyperlink which originally brought this controversy to light is now disabled.... go figure... I suppose the people who ran Senator Kerry's website had to get a job somewhere after the election. No worries though... there are websites out there that happen to cater to this sort of thing..

I am sure someone here will provided a nice link to one of those sites....

Blaming ME for this discussion? I doubt it ray... you are a mod here, you should have better reading comprehension.

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I was banned from godlike productions(over 400 times)... and loved it.

"I haven't made you angry, have I?" -Malcolm Reynolds

Pretty broad statement. Do you really mean it?
Mature, educated moms sound quite a bit different during the birth of their children than the hysterical woman shown in the film. Luckily, my daughter was able to listen to a tape of her brother's birth. If anything, the episode served to increase my credibility in my daughter's eyes. I told the story to show that you cannot unconditionally trust the professionals.

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Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does. It never happens. It's a dumb question... skip it.

Yes, although I would have loved to have a teacher like that when I was in high school. There's a reason I joined the Army.

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Man up.

A qualified "yes." If something comes up, or the kids ask about it, I don't avoid the topic or tell a lie. Since we read the paper in the morning and occasionally watch TV news, that covers a lot of territory. I've had to explain Iraq, the election, the tsunami and other not-so-comfortable concepts to my 4-year-old. We've talked about the need to be wary of strangers, and you can't do that without broaching some topics that can be terrifying to a little kid.

I've been highly impressed at how well small kids can handle "tough" concepts like death and war and natural disaster. Present it matter-of-factly in a way they can understand, and they do fine. I don't think we do them many favors by coddling them too much.

Agreed. Unconditional trust is at least as misguided as blanket indictments.

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Man up.

Never said acknowledging the existence of gay people is hedonistic, but I think it’s safe to say that the gay lifestyle is the very definition of hedonism. Even the most tame gay show (try saying that 3 times fast) on TV, Will and Grace, is a testament to this (e.g., pill addicted Karen - I know she’s not gay all the time, promiscuous Jack, etc.). If I’m wrong, please correct me.

Did you ever study the Ten Commandments and their implications for the betterment of society? Or was that subject matter deemed too objectionable?


Please stop putting words in my mouth.


No and it wouldn't bother me addressing the subject under my supervision in my home.

I’d be interested in one example of a publicly funded school, K-12, that provides any course whatsoever on the fundamental values espoused by the world’s three top religions. If there is one, the ACLU certainly hasn’t found out about it yet.

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty...ontentStyle=16

Of course not. When kids ask something, they are usually prepared for the answer. An answer I used when the question was particularly hair-raising is, "That's a hard question for me to answer in a way you'll understand. You'll have to give me some time to think about it, and ask me again later." If it's only a fleeting question, months can go by in which time the kid is mature enough to handle the answer. In any event, it buys some time to think of an appropriate way to answer. I also learned that when they ask where babies come from, they don't really want to know the whole sordid story. They can be satisfied with "it grows in a special place inside the Mommy" for a long time. They are much older (Thank God) before they want to know how it got there and how it gets out.

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Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does. It never happens. It's a dumb question... skip it.

The "gay lifestyle"? What does that mean? Do you see any meaning in the phrase "straight lifestyle?"

I've got a cousin-in-law and a couple of friends who are gay. One of them was rowdy when he was younger (who wasn't?) but now is a homebody in a committed relationship whose favorite activity is gardening.

The other two are also in committed relationships, doing the same sort of normal, boring things all couples do -- including, in one case, adopting a child.

Is this the "gay lifestyle" to which you refer?

Are you seriously using *TV shows* as your example of everyday gay life? Was "Married with Children" an example of everyday heterosexual life? Is "Sex and the City" typical of straight people? How about "Desperate Housewives?" Or "The Bachelor?" Or....

Lordy.

I think there's a line between teaching *about* a religion and teaching the religion. Study the tenets of Christianity, including the Ten Commandments? Fine. Teach their "implications for the betterment of society?" That begins to sound like indoctrination. Though it would depend on the context. "How religion and civil life interact" would be an interesting topic.

As a personal aside, I think such an assignment would be intellectually shallow, since most major religions have a similar set of tenets, and the Ten Commandments are remarkably lightweight. The first four have nothing to do with society, dealing instead with how to properly worship God. The last six lay out ideas that nearly every society somehow managed to come up with on its own: don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't lie, obey your elders. "Do not covet" is the only Commandment I find interesting.

Writing down the obvious doesn't make the Ten Commandments profound. It's like the people who try to patent the wheel.

Fine. My point was, why do you assume that any school-based discussion about homosexuality would be sexualized?

Well, the fact that a sight like studyreligion claims such teaching is taking place strikes me as reasonably good evidence that it is. But I'll see what I can find.

Do you read your own link? The ACLU does not oppose religion -- it opposes special treatment for religion, and has fought to defend religious groups when their rights were infringed. From an ACLU bulletin on your link:

"[The Supreme Court has found] that academic study of religion, or religious texts, is not forbidden in the public schools so long as religious topics are "presented objectively as part of a secular program of education." Abington Township, 374 U.S. at 225; accord Stone, 449 U.S. at 41 (noting that the Bible may constitutionally be used as part of the secular study of history or comparative religion)."

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Man up.