We have a difference of opinion with regard to whether infrastructure should operate in the black. Since that area is of interest to you, maybe you could google it and post articles.

With regard to comparing Europe and Japan to California. That's a good question, b/c city pairs in the US are generally spaced further than in Europe or Japan.

No they didn't. We have had plenty of boom and bust since the New Deal. You cannot address boom and bust until you address monetary policy.

We have had recessions, no depressions, as were very common before 1929.
Since WW2, recessions have been narrow and shallow. The average duration was 16 mos (we are passed that now, this one is the worst since ww2).

Here is an article that does talk about some of the HSR projects in the rest of the world:


The World’s 7 Best High Speed Rail NetworksPosted on Thursday March 26th by Yonah Freemark


Obama’s $8 billion gambit for high-speed rail in the stimulus package may be the country’s largest-ever investment in its railways, but America is still decades behind the curve when it comes to fast trains. We reviewed the state of the high speed rail in other countries around the world, and came up with this ranking of the best networks. We could do a lot worse than to emulate any one of them.

7. Germany

Germany began developing its high-speed rail program just after France introduced its own in the 1980s, but though InterCityExpress (ICE) trains are a common sight on the Teutonic landscape, they rarely run at their maximum speeds. In fact, though Germany is Europe’s biggest economy, it only has two rail lines operating at speeds of 180 mph or above: between Frankfurt and Cologne and between Munich and Nuremburg. Much of the rest of the country is connected via lines running at about 120 mph. The result are relatively slow travel speeds: the trip between Munich and Berlin takes almost six hours, compared to three on a similar-distance Paris-Marseille TGV.

ICE trains were subject to major mechanical flaws in the late 1990s, culminating in the Eschede disaster in 1998, when a train slammed into a bridge at full speed, killing more than 100 people. The problem was the German train operator’s lack of maintenance on the steel wheels, which were subjected to excessive wear and tear; a crack developed on a ring surrounding the wheel, eventually causing it to dislodge and push the train off the tracks. (It should be noted that since then there has not been a major accident on the German rail network and that, in general, high-speed rail is one of the world’s safest commuting options, with a perfect record in France, Japan, Spain, and Italy. Germany’s experience was a rare deviation from the norm.)

6. Italy

Italy isn’t often given credit for its efforts, but it was the first country in Europe to offer high-speed rail, starting in 1978 between Rome and Florence. Until recently, however, the network hasn’t been expanding very quickly, with Venice and Genoa consistently left out of the fold and the Rome-Milan line severely limited because of delays between Florence and Bologna.

But the opening last year of the new link between Milan and Bologna has cut the travel time between the cities in half to just 65 minutes. And connections south of Naples and north of Florence are in construction, as are links north to Austria through the giant Brenner Base Tunnel and west to France through the planned Lyon-Turin link.

Italy’s transportation future may lie in privatized high-speed rail lines, since it will be the first country in Europe to offer such service. Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori will use brand-new Alstom AGV trainsets to compete directly with the state-run lines beginning in 2011.

5. Japan

In 1964, Japan began operating the Shinkansen, the world’s first high-speed trains, between Tokyo and Osaka. Today, the country’s network extends almost 1,500 miles, from Tokyo north to Hachinohe and south to Hakata; new lines extending the network west to Kanazawa, south to Nagasaki, and north to Sapporo are in the planning phase.

The most important route, running from Tokyo to Osaka, often sees overcrowding, forcing some trains to operate at 200% capacity. But the network simply cannot handle more vehicles – they already operate every five minutes at peak periods – so the country is busy developing a maglev line that will parallel the existing route. Unfortunately, it won’t be ready until 2025.

As excellent as Japan’s rail system is, the privatization of the railways in 1987 into six separate entities, all managing distinct portions of the network, makes through connections between different parts of Japan difficult, sometimes requiring a train change on routes that should be direct.

4. Taiwan

Taiwan opened its high-speed rail line, which runs the length of the western coast of the country, only two years ago, but it has been so successful that competing bus and air service has already been scaled way back. That’s because the Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation runs trains at 180 mph and reduced the travel time by rail from Taipei in the north to Kaohsiung in the south from 4.5 hours to just 90 minutes.

The project was subject to a number of problems, including an internal battle over whether European or Japanese technology would be used for the line (the latter was ultimately picked). Its construction was also marred by an electrical system breakdown. But its operation has been problem-free.

The country’s $15 billion investment in fast rail services was significant, but the project was tolerable for the nation’s pocketbook because 80% of the total costs were covered by private investors. The private company that runs the service is already operating at a profit and slowly but surely paying back initial capital costs. Along with being a boon to travelers, Taiwan’s high-speed railway makes economic sense.

3. France

France’s Train à Grande Vitesse (TGV) is probably the best-known brand in high-speed rail because the service, which first opened for the public in 1981, has been consistently reliable, fast, and convenient. Now the network, extending in all directions from Paris, ensures that the vast majority of French citizens have easy access to their capital - which explains why the service attracts 100 million passengers a year. International high-speed connections to England, Germany, and Belgium are in service, and fast links to Italy and Spain are under construction. France’s network already forms the backbone of the European rail network, a status that is expected only to improve in the coming years with the completion of more track.

France is investing quickly in new lines, hoping to speed services between the provinces, rather than just to and from Paris. Lyon will be getting a line north to Strasbourg on the German border, and Toulouse, which currently lacks a high-speed link, will be connected directly to Bordeaux. Meanwhile, TGVs are likely to get faster, with tests in 2007 pushing a modified train set to speeds of 345 mph.

TGVs offer speedy service - the trip between Paris and Marseille, at 450 miles, can be completed in just three hours - but what makes French rail really special is its accessibility. Since the first line was inaugurated, the French government has operated the trains under the motto “TGV pour tous,” meaning fast rail for everyone. As a result, the trains aren’t luxurious, but they’re comfortable and cheap enough for anyone to ride. That’s especially true because of the national rail company’s discounts for the poor, the young, the old, the sick, and large families. There’s little cost incentive in France to take the slow train.

Even so, the national rail company made over a billion Euros in profit in 2007 and half a billion in 2008, even as the economic crisis started to bite. France’s example shows that it is possible to imagine fast railways that are accessible to the rich and to the poor, for travel over short and long distances, that don’t break the national bank.

2. China

It’s hard to believe that China’s first high-speed train began operating last year. By 2020, the Chinese government plans to have constructed 8000 miles of a fast rail network. Focusing on the country’s heavily populated eastern seaboard, trains will operate at 180 mph and above between Beijing and Shanghai and Hong Kong, and between Xuzhou and Lanzhou and Hangzhou and Changsha. Meanwhile, many of the other major cities in the country will be upgraded to 120 mph operation.

The 800 mile Beijing-Shanghai line, which will open for operations next year, and will reduce travel time from 14 hours to 5, attracting an estimated 220,000 daily passengers and should dramatically reduce air travel between the metropolises.

Shanghai’s maglev system, which began operations in 2004, connects the city center with the airport some 30 km away. The trains travel up to 431 km/h on regular runs, making it the fastest operating passenger railway in the world. An extension to Hangzhou, the city’s other airport, is under consideration.

Though China has signed several huge contracts with Germany’s Siemens for hundreds of high-speed trainsets, the expansion of high-speed rail has also inspired the growth of native Chinese rail manufacturers, which are also selling some of the system’s rail vehicles. Not only will high-speed rail make travel faster and more convenient in China–it’s also foster scientific ingenuity and a new domestic industry.

1. Spain

(#1 is Spain, but the article is too long to post, please click to link to read the blurb about Spain ... )


link - lots of intra-article hyperlinks

Here's another article, short one, about new HSR currently underway in the world:



Chart: New High Speed Rail Projects Around The WorldPosted on Monday April 6th by Yonah Freemark





Everywhere you look, from Argentina to Saudi Arabia, there’s a country planning a new high-speed rail line. Inspired by the success of fast train systems in Europe and Japan, politicians see these links as a way to speed travel between major cities, reduce carbon emissions, and spark smart urban development. President Obama shares those goals and devoted $8 billion to HSR in the stimulus bill.

This chart compares seven lines on four continents that are either in the engineering phase or already under construction. They range in size from the diminutive 34-mile project that will connect Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to the gargantuan 818-mile link between Beijing and Shanghai. The variations in construction cost per mile and local meaning of the term “high speed” are almost as great.


link

Here's a map of what's designated here in the US for future HSR lines:



High-Speed Rail Corridor Descriptions




Designated High-Speed Rail Corridors Map


Overview: Section 1010 of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991 (ISTEA) established a special program to fund safety improvements at highway-rail grade crossings on corridors that were “designated” as high-speed intercity passenger rail corridors based on their present utility and their potential for future development. This grade crossing safety program is codified at 23 U.S.C. 104(d)(2).
Current Status of Designations: At present, up to eleven corridors are authorized for designation, of which the Secretary of Transportation and/or the Congress have designated the ten corridors that are shown in green on the map. A full corridor chronology is available of the designations and modifications since 1992. Of the designated corridors, three were specifically named by Congress in law. The other seven were selected by the Secretary of Transportation in a competitive process, which in current law involves an evaluation of such factors as projected ridership, public benefits, and anticipated partnership participation of States, localities, and the freight railroads.

Status of the Northeast Corridor: Linking Boston, New York, Washington, and intermediate cities, Amtrak's Northeast Corridor (NEC) main line (shown in a heavy line on the map) is America's most highly-developed rail corridor, having benefited from over $4 billion in direct Federal funding under the Northeast Corridor Improvement Project that had its roots in the High-Speed Ground Transportation (HSGT) Act of 1965 and the railroad restructuring legislation of the mid-1970s. Development of the NEC began some 27 years prior to the first designations under the ISTEA high-speed rail grade crossing improvement program. By 1992, the NEC had already undergone extensive renewal and upgrading, and was already free of grade crossings south of New York and largely free of them to the north. Thus, there was no reason to “designate” it under what was essentially a grade crossing upgrading program. Accordingly, the NEC main line is not a "designated high-speed rail corridor."

DESIGNATED HIGH-SPEED RAIL CORRIDORS:

California Corridor

Pacific Northwest Corridor

South Central Corridor

Gulf Coast Corridor

Chicago Hub Network

Florida Corridor

Southeast Corridor

Keystone Corridor

Empire Corridor

Northern New England Corridor


Passenger Rail / High-Speed Rail

Last Updated: Apr. 15, 2009


;ink

Understand, I like rail travel. I'm an exception, rather then the rule in the US. I have traveled via Eurostar multiple times and I like it.And I've done Amtrak in and out of DC and up to NYC. It's just not more efficient for the country as a whole.

I don't think you get the economy of scale in the US. We're dramatically farther apart

As far as infrastructure operating in the black or not, you'd need to be more specific.

Sorry, Atlas, as I was the one who pointed out the longer distances in the US, I quite do understand the difference.

Infrastructure is a basic element of a successful society. You invest in it, and build it, because if you don't you fall behind. You don't do defense b/c it operates in the black, and you don't do infrastructure b/c it operates in the black too.

To think you should shows how far bastardized our society has become. Capitalistic goals and Societial goals have gotten mixed up.

Rail travel having been surpassed in ease, cost and speed in the last fifty years, I just don't see a passenger rail system as a national public infrastructure priority.

It would be nice if we were so ultimately flush with money that we could spend as though we were just printing it. But not critical.

And I didn't mean to sound condescending on the distances, I apologize if I did. I know you raised the issue.When I reply, I do so knowing any poster might reply, not just you.

Anyone of sound mind has to realize that public goods have to be paid for through taxation. But the trouble with public goods is, that unlike consumer goods, there is no way to realize when they achieved the greatest utility.

Then it become a matter of priorities. To avoid another Carter-esque era of stagflation we have to protect against two things, only one being within our control, and that's inflation. Running budget deficits deflates the value of the dollar, basically stealing from the 401k and IRA's of future retirees. Government isn't mean to be run like a money factory and printing worthless fiat erodes current savings.

The federal government doesn't generate additional revenue via subsidized jobs. In fact government revenue is most closely tied to GDP.



The right answer is to encourage private sector job creation. Incentive entrepreneurship, simplify the tax code and scale down the size and scope of the imperial federal government. That's how you fix this.

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