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Old 06-20-2005, 04:42 PM
JOEBIALEK JOEBIALEK is offline
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Default Reform or Revolution?

I had the opportunity the other day to watch a most enlightening program broadcast by UCTV. The one-hour program was called "How Unequal Can America Get Before We Snap?" presented by President Clinton's former labor secretary Robert Reich.

"Inequality of income, wealth, and opportunity in America is wider now than it's been since the 1920s, and by some measures since the late 19th century. Yet the nation seems unable or unwilling to do much of anything to reverse these trends. What happens if we allow the trends to continue? Will they "naturally" reverse themselves? Or will we get to a point where disparities are so wide that we finally find the political will to take action? Alternatively, will the disparities themselves grow so wide as to discourage action, by fostering resignation among the losers and indifference among the winners? And if the latter, where will it all lead?" SOURCE: Goldman School of Public Policy UC, Berkley

The presentation made excellent use of economic graphs to demonstrate how large of a gap has developed between the upper class and the middle class (not to mention the lower class) with regards to income, wealth, and opportunity in the United States between the years 1962 to the present. The trends are alarming to say the least. The speaker correctly points to birthright as the beginning of the disparity that allows for advantages in everything from diet and healthcare to education and connections. Being born into a middle-class family myself, I have truly benefited from my birthright in terms of these advantages right from the starting gate. Some people would argue that many a poor person has risen up by their "own boot straps" but I would argue that in today's society, most (not all) poor people can only rise up with a good pair of athletic shoes or a willingness to sell drugs. Otherwise they have to remain content with working in the service industry for comparatively lower wages than their upper-class counterparts. Mr. Reich further points out that one of the elements keeping our society glued together is the belief or perception by the lower class that opportunity in this country still exists and that if one is willing to work hard, they can be successful.

The speaker talks of two potential outcomes for this growing disparity. He uses the metaphor of the rubber band to illustrate his point. Our society will either "snap back" with a series of reforms supported by all three classes and the government to regain a sense of fairness when it comes to income, wealth, and opportunity in the United States. This has occurred at least once before in the history of our country during a time referred to as the progressive movement. The other potential outcome is for our society to "snap break" whereby this country exists with two entirely different societies. The problem with the latter outcome is that it often leads to the arrival of a demagogue who plays upon the emotions of the middle and lower classes all for the hidden intention of personal gain. We have seen this all too often in history with the likes of Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, Lenin etcetera. Mr. Reich suggests somehow that the upper class are not a group with malicious intent but rather are nothing more than a naive self-indulgent class of people who don't know any better. Here I beg to differ. I believe the upper class is guilty of a careless disregard for their fellow countrymen. They have the arrogance to believe they are superior and deserving of extravagance regardless of how they attained it and regardless of how it affects the rest of society. Once again, history shows us what happened to those monarchs who behaved the same way. Do I think there will be a violent revolution in this country? I hope not. Do I prefer a new progressive movement over even a peaceful revolution? Absolutely. My fear however, is that we are already rapidly approaching the point of "critical mass" beyond which there is no turning back. The question today before the American people is what are YOU prepared to do?
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Old 06-20-2005, 10:59 PM
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Default .:.

Hopefully, if it comes to revolution, we would have a figure similar to Che Guevara instead of a Mussolini or some other dictator.

I think it is possible to fix this country as it is, but if we are to do it, we need to do it now before we cross the line of their being so much economic polarization that there would be no feasable option other than a complete economic restructuring to fix it.

People always say that wealth re-distribution would make everyone miserable. Bull. There is so much freaking money in elite circles that if distributed, most of the country would be living at the level of an average middle class citizen. The only people who would be miserable would be corporate fat cats who lose their money.

It is possible to hold true to what America stands for and have a fair wealth situation.

If we dont fix things, our country will implode, and another country is going to take advantage of our vulnerability (can you say China?)

People always look to countries like China and Russia and say that communism has failed. Well, sorry to tell you, but those are not communist states. Those are leaders who promised communism to a people in economic starvation who turned around and enslave their people. Thats called a dictatorship.

No government has actually formed what a communist country would be like. It is possible, nobody has sincerely attempted it yet.

And you want to say socialism doesnt work? Look at Switzerland. Richest country in the world. No wars, a ridiculously armed population, and they are doing great. Taxes are high, but it doesnt really matter when everyone is doing well, very very low poverty rate, and the social programs are working so well that it gives every child a chance at an amazing education and up to date health care.

Why are people so blind? WHy cant they see that our way of life is but one of thousands upon thousands of possibilites of how we could function as a people? We can make our country whatever we want it to be, but the people standing in the way of it are the people who call themselves the leaders of America, and the corporations who have us by the balls, and are sucking every drop of blood out of our population.

Wake up people. Wake up.
We can change things, progression is possible, there are more choices out there than the idiotic suggestions put forth by Republicans and Democrats.
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:49 PM
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I kinda like the idea of a revolution, because all the sissy libs don't own guns...Atleast not in as high of #'s at us Republicans...So bring on the revolution...
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relix";p=&quot View Post
I kinda like the idea of a revolution, because all the sissy libs don't own guns...Atleast not in as high of #'s at us Republicans...So bring on the revolution...
You are referring to hippies. Hippies dont start revolutions, they start social movements.

Frankly im not surprised that you would make some idiotic off hand remark, none of the posts Ive seen you make have any substance whatsoever, just the same old back and forth childish namecalling that infests this board like a bad cold.

How exactly are 'liberals' sissy? Because they realize that war is counterproductive and just keeps us in the same vicious cycle of creation and destruction? Because they care about benefitting the human race as a whole instead of some elitist corporate lackies born into super rich families? Because they actually have minds of their own and dont conform to some stormtrooper like mentality that you and your kind have clung to like its your last security blanket?
People like you are the sissy ones. People not able to look outside of their little box and see whats really happening in the world. People who rely on high payed barbie dolls on TV to tell them what reality is. People who cant think for themselves.

I own guns. Alot of my friends do as well.
Stereotypes dont hold very well, unless they are about the simple minded ignorance of people on all sides of the political spectrum like you.

I mean why do you even come to a message board about debating politics if all youre gonna do is make childish remarks? Does that make you feel better somehow? Youre probably compensating. Someone probably stole your lunch money when you were little, or you have some sort of inferiority complex that needs to be purged through mindless insults.
Whatever the case may be, im not surprised you would spit out some stupid comment like you did, congratulations, you fit right in with the rest of the morons on this board who feed into the ridiculous poop flinging political crap that the media portrays to keep people in the dark about what is really happenning.
So why dont you go back to high school and learn to debate, and the people who actually care about the future of this country will do something about changing it.
Get a clue buddy.
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:22 AM
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Default Revolt against whom

I don't think it is the "sissy libs" that would be the target of the revolt. They would be the ones revolting against the inequalities. Relix, are you some corporate fat cat or something. Because when the revolution comes, it is the top echelon of society that will get lynched, not the sissy libs. So you better be prepared to defend your $40 Million mansion with that gun of yours. I might be coming for you.

Actually, I myself again don't fit the stereotypes thrown around, or else I would be a republican.
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relix";p=&quot View Post
I kinda like the idea of a revolution, because all the sissy libs don't own guns...Atleast not in as high of #'s at us Republicans...So bring on the revolution...
IF there was a revolution, it would be won by Republicans, giving us even more power than we have now. So really, this seems like a fantastic idea in my mind!
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Old 06-21-2005, 03:13 PM
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If the next president really screws up, then I think we can expect a good amount of rioting at a couple points. People are angry enough at Bush, and people are angry at the people that are angry at bush just enough for there to be a major ****storm within the next decade.
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