Memo’s show torture policies emanated from Bush’s White Hous - Page 3

JP5 · #21 (**permalink**) 09-26-2005, 10:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Winningsmile";p=&quot

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Originally Posted by JP5";p=&quot

If wearing them down by making them stand on one foot while holding jugs with their arms extended does the trick....then more power to them!!

You must have stood on one foot too long yourself. My opening post on this thread as well as other publications I’ve quoted indicated broken bones, cigarette burns, isolation while being exposed to extreme temperatures, beatings and deaths. CIA Agents, The Red Cross and others have reported these incidents. Also it’s amazing how you neglected nude pyramids and being exposed to sexual acts, which all the world knows about from the Abu Graib torture stories. You truly live in a world of self-deception’ thinking that we only specialize in making prisoners stand on one foot.

EVERY single allegation has been investigated. And how many have been convicted? A handful. But at least they've been convicted IF they did anything illegal. Why do you choose to ignore Gitmo and the clean bedding, the fans, the outside time and fresh air....the 3 meals per day.....the games.....the prayer rugs and Korans furnished them......the ability to talk to their friends....the medical attention? Doesn't it fit with your agenda?

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Originally Posted by Winningsmile";p=&quot

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Originally Posted by JP5";p=&quot

This is not to say that that means we have a policy in place to torture. !!

You’ve hit the nail right on the head here. The fact is, once the administration suspends Geneva Convention guidelines you have no control over what will happen next. We didn’t just abuse Al Quaida detainees (another distortion of yours) we abused Iraqis. The fact that abuse and torture policies migrated from Gitmo to Iraq and to other locations proves that Bush’s policies spun out of control. The fact that we are sentencing the guards from Abu Graib is proof that lack of hard and fast guidelines and training, leads to atrocities.

What you’re terrified to admit, is that many more abuses stories are breaking out

You’ve also missed another point. The Gonzales Memo stated that international treaties might be suspended under certain circumstances. This means we can also torture signatories to the Geneva agreements

The Abu Graib abuses and other abuse events lead back to policies rolled out by the White House, The Justice Dept and the Defense Dept

Except, as usual Bush takes no responsibility for his actions. That's why he says only a handful of bad eggs committed the crimes. With Bush, I smell a rotten egg.

You obviously think very little of our military. I know some of them. My husband WAS in the military. And he says he would NEVER have done anything he felt was unlawful.

And maybe the few that do get out of line....don't much care for prisoners who say, "Zarqawi kill you." They are there; they have to put up with how they and their fellow soldiers are treated. Perhaps seeing a few of their buddies charred bodies hanging from bridges kinda gets them pretty upset.

What do you people think WAR is, anyway?

Winningsmile · #22 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 06:56 AM

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Originally Posted by JP5";p=&quot

My husband WAS in the military. And he says he would NEVER have done anything he felt was unlawful. ?

I have no doubt of that.

But the issue isn’t about your husband or any one soldier. It’s about Bush/Rumsfeld/ Gonzalez policies that have spiraled out of control. The policies were an attempt to justify torture and prevent U.S. soldiers from being charged with committing international war crimes.

These policies have had a disastrous affect. Bush has made too many disastrous errors in this war. He needs to take responsibility. He needs to let the chips fall where they may. Instead he uses deception. The public has lost faith in the Iraq war. By not being up front and honest Bush is not helping himself.

Sadistic-Savior · #23 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 08:24 AM

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The policies to suspend the Geneva conventions did exist.

The memo does not = policy. Those soldiers were not ordered by Bush to torture anyone. Period.

Bush is not guilty by default. The burden of proof is on you. The memo is not proof that Bush had a policy of torture.

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Why don’t you just come out and say it, you agree with the Bush policies, which spun, out of control and lead to wide spread abuse and torture. .

No, I do not agree with it. If it turned out that it WAS his policy, I would still be opposed to it. Not that I care so much if terrorists get tortured. There are many reasons to be opposed to torture that are completely selfish and have nothing to do with humanitarianism.

So far I have not seen sufficient evidence that it was his policy though, so speculation is irrelevant. Is it really so hard to believe that a few sadists would have an incentive to join the military and act on their own? You people paint Bush an an evil genius with one stroke and an idiot with the next. Which is it?

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What are you afraid of?

Of liberals wasting taxpayer money on baseless accusations.

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But the issue isn’t about your husband or any one soldier. It’s about Bush/Rumsfeld/ Gonzalez policies that have spiraled out of control.

You have to prove they are policies first. Bush is not guilty by default.

nawbut · #24 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 12:39 PM

Now that Hitler has been vindicated on these pages I think we all owe him an apology; having discovered no memo explicitly linking him to an order establishing the 'policy' of extermination of the Jewish people, he is, therefore......unfairly accused?

'With what reason he had left, he reasoned....but he reasoned ill....'

Rebellion · #25 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 12:51 PM

but if some terrorists who never signed Geneva and have no intention of participating in it get tortured and they provide info that saves lives then I honestly could care less that it happened to them. Iraq is different, they are soldiers of a country, they have a government that will claim them, not so with Al Qaeda.

Sadistic-Savior · #26 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 01:06 PM

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Now that Hitler has been vindicated on these pages I think we all owe him an apology; having discovered no memo explicitly linking him to an order establishing the 'policy' of extermination of the Jewish people, he is, therefore......unfairly accused?

We have a double standard. Dictators are not treated the same as elected officials. Hitler was a dictator. Therefore he was guilty by default.

Rebellion · #27 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 01:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior";p=&quot

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Now that Hitler has been vindicated on these pages I think we all owe him an apology; having discovered no memo explicitly linking him to an order establishing the 'policy' of extermination of the Jewish people, he is, therefore......unfairly accused?

We have a double standard. Dictators are not treated the same as elected officials. Hitler was a dictator. Therefore he was guilty by default.

There is no "Mein Kampf" or any other workds written by Bush unlike with Hitler.

damooster · #28 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 02:42 PM

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Originally Posted by JP5";p=&quot

What do you people think WAR is, anyway?

I know what combat is, but why don't you tell us? How can you, who's never been in combat or probably ever been shot at, tell us what war is?

Your husband (I thank him for serving his country) is the one that served, not you. Maybe he told you stories or whatever, but unless you picked up a gun and fought for your country (like I have), don't try to pretend you know what it's like to lose a fellow comrade.

I've seen charred bodies and dead soldiers. I've had soldiers take their last breath right before my eyes. I didn't respond by beating on prisoners.

But yeah, you know exactly what war is all about.

Winningsmile · #29 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 07:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Sadistic-Savior";p=&quot

The memo does not = policy. Those soldiers were not ordered by Bush to torture anyone. Period.

Bush is not guilty by default. The burden of proof is on you. The memo is not proof that Bush had a policy of torture. .

Just what is your point?

I never said that Bush directly ordered anyone to commit torture. If you read the article that opened this thread (which you obviously haven’t.) the thrust of it was that Bush’s policies left the door open for torture.

When the White house rolls out policies that claim that the Geneva conventions and other laws of war don’t apply, you give soldiers, guards and interrogators a fee hand to act as they please. As I’ve said over and over, Bush’s policies spun out of control.

Bush and his cohorts were irresponsible and shortsighted and ultimately must take the blame for much of what happened. Declaring that we are above international laws and conventions is insane.

And actually there was more than one memo.

“And on Jan. 9, 2002, John Yoo of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel coauthored a sweeping 42-page memo concluding that neither the Geneva Conventions nor any of the laws of war applied to the conflict in Afghanistan.”

Sadistic-Savior · #30 (**permalink**) 09-27-2005, 09:08 PM

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Just what is your point?

That the memo does not = policy. Did I stutter?

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the thrust of it was that Bush’s policies left the door open for torture.

...in your opinion...

Bush did not authorize what they did, yet you are trying to hold him responsible for their actions.

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Bush and his cohorts were irresponsible and shortsighted and ultimately must take the blame for much of what happened.

Case in point.

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When the White house rolls out policies that claim that the Geneva conventions and other laws of war don’t apply, you give soldiers, guards and interrogators a fee hand to act as they please.

Since when? Everything they did was still against the law, right?

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Declaring that we are above international laws and conventions is insane.

A lot of people agree with him. I have advocated withdrawing from the UN many time. Does that mean I must advocate torture too?