Thread: That the US is an imperial hegemon.

M-ALI,
out of your cave for an afternoon troll....
US still an oil exporting country in 1945,
we are concerned with containment of the evil soviets!!!!
aren't you happy we defeated the soviets in the cold war?

Originally Posted by the big ragu

M-ALI,
out of your cave for an afternoon troll....
US still an oil exporting country in 1945,
we are concerned with containment of the evil soviets!!!!
aren't you happy we defeated the soviets in the cold war?

Really? How many barrels per day was the US exporting in 1945?

Ragu: have you forgotten US gas rationing that began in 1942?

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/vogas.htm

So when was the US a gas exporter?

Originally Posted by Margot

Really? How many barrels per day was the US exporting in 1945?

you figure it out....

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hi...s=MCREXUS1&f=A

Originally Posted by Margot

Ragu: have you forgotten US gas rationing that began in 1942?

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/vogas.htm

So when was the US a gas exporter?

world wide conflaguration doe that sometimes....

Originally Posted by the big ragu

world wide conflaguration doe that sometimes....

Do you know why the American public was treated to the bogus Peak Oil theory back in the 1950s?

It was a propaganda ploy.....

Domestic producers had lift costs that were ten times higher than those in the Middle East.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

i've addressed your points:
1- hegemon? if you say so
2- imperial? NOPE

Where did you show this? Seriously, where?

Originally Posted by the big ragu

3- the world would be better without US? NOPE

This isnt relevant to this thread mate.

I never said there wasn't a cold war, I have totally acknowledged the Soviet threat, I have hwoever shown that regardless, the US acted totally for its own, imperial interests.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

this is absolutely NOT TRUE....
i've given you mountains of evidence that illustrates the "evils" of the soviet "hegemon", (notice negative connotation)
and your response?
the "evil" (my word) soviet union models a repressive gov't which purged peasant's, ukrainians, german's, poles of millions.....hundreds of millions....
stalin's, krushchev, breshnev's blood stained hands....
how could even compare that "EVIL".....
we stamped out that "EVIL", you should be grateful...

Again, I agree, the Soviet Union, was evil - how is that relevant to the US?

Originally Posted by the big ragu

actually my argument is simple:
+ the USSR was a far worse alternative; (Cold War = good vs. evil)
+ the world is better off because we defeated the soviets....
+ the US is the most powerful nation on the planet since 1945
+ we are not an imperialist country(using your own definition, already)
you should write a book, who else with come up with this nonsense:
The US empire can be measured not by its number of directly controlled colonies, but rather its standing military bases and continuous coercion.

Actually I took that line from Chalmers Johnson's book, Dismantling the Empire.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Dismantling-Empire-Americas-American-Project/dp/0805093036"]http://www.amazon.com/Dismantling-Empire-Americas-American-Project/dp/0805093036[/ame]

Originally Posted by the big ragu

think about what you just wrote, the US cannot be measured by its colonies....but rather by its military bases, and coercion?

Do you not understand English?

Originally Posted by the big ragu

so the US cannot be adjudged by facts but by the amount of bases and "coercion" interesting word...."coercion" now just how would the US be coercive, as opposed to those "lovely soviets" (PLEASE SEE SARCASM)

I have already shown you - through economic and military intervention, all around the world. I gave you a list of over 15 such examples.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

no what i am saying is that we have made mistakes, we are not perfect....
i've said it every post...and sometimes we have supported "bad" leaders at the risk of something worse....

So basically, every bit of evidence I have is simply a "mistake", sorry but that is childish to say the least. There is a clear motive behind these actions. The US doesn't just bring about regime change "by mistake" repeatedly.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

I love the smell of victory in the morning!!!!!
you can have your cake and eat it too?

Sorry mate you lost by the forth post - LOL you couldn't even reply to it.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

you proclaimed them legitimate, i guess because in their name these organizations evoked "nationalism".....
"in name only"?

Again prove it was in name only. By your initial standards they were compeltely legitimate.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

we aren't here to debate morality?

No, we are here to debate whether the US is a hegemonic empire, and you just admitted I was right -WIN!

Originally Posted by the big ragu

forget the hundreds of millions murdered by the soviets, and the repression of humanity but remember the estimated 100 thousand murdered by by rhee?

LOL So if you kill 2 people I can one and its justified

Originally Posted by the big ragu

you make the rules;
no morality, you got it!
the US isn't an empire, it is a great SUPERPOWER!!!!!

Show how my points, which show it is an empire, are wrong.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

i've responded to EVERY STATEMENT made

No you haven't, you have yet to reply to Japan and Korea. I already whooped your ass on Greece.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

internal memos, are a product of a free and open society, aren't they awesome!!!!

But they weren't free. They weren't available to anyone for 30 years. LOL

Originally Posted by the big ragu

keenan memo pps23 stated
I. United States, Britain, and Europe
On the assumption that Western Europe will be rescued from communist control, the relationships between Great Britain and the continental countries, on the one hand, and between Great Britain and the United States and Canada.... The solutions will have to be evolved step by step over a long period of time. But it is not too early today for us to begin to think out the broad outlines of the pattern which would best suit our national interests.
In my opinion, the following facts are basic to a consideration of the problem.
1. Some form of political, military and economic union in Western Europe will be necessary if the free nations of Europe are to hold their own against the people of the east united under Moscow rule.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Memo_P..._George_Kennan
keenan was offering opinion and advice, he was RIGHT!!!!!

He also, as I showed earlier, placed US interests - separate from democracy, liberty and freedom, as the primary goal of US foreign policy.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

talked?
i gave you citations, didn't i, once again, slip, slide and away....

No, you gave me a Wikipedia page. Slip, slip -oh you just fell.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

not true!!!
superpower, yes....empire NOT!!!
evil, definately NOT!!!!

Yes, the US is evil - thew USSR is just MORE evil. They are both evil, though.
God smiles on the United States of America and all its friends!!!![/quote]
God clearly hates the US mate, but again this is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

did you now, and i showed you truman's response to the stalinist or trotskyites or tito or maoist or whatever!!!!!

I showed you Truman's policy - totally unfaithful to the US' public presentations.

Originally Posted by the big ragu

GREECE?
finally!!!
In October 1946, DSE (Democratic Army of Greece) launched a campaign to win control of the whole country, and received support from neighboring Yugoslavia, Albania and Bulgaria.
http://www.marxists.org/subject/gree...-war/index.htm

Yes and these countries had no allegiance to the USSR! WIN!

Originally Posted by the big ragu

It is unquestionable that in 1936 Greece was in the throes of a revolutionary crisis. The Greek workers were prepared to overthow capitalist rule and join hands with the peasantry to form a government of Workers and Farmers. The Communist Party dominated the whole working class movement and likewise enjoyed strong support in the countryside.
http://www.marxists.org/subject/gree...945/02/x01.htm
By 1936, on instructions from the Comintern, they had made an about face and began their ultra-opportunist course of the People's Front. Instead of organizing the workers for decisive revolutionary action and working to draw the peasants of the countryside into the struggle
http://www.marxists.org/subject/gree...945/02/x01.htm
it goes on and on, you read it!!!!
the marxists actually blame the british for alot of their discontent....
trotskyites, stalinists, who gives, the best red is a dead red!!!!!

LOL You are clearly losing. You had to go form your first source of Wikipedia, to a Marxist, biased website! LOL! Fail!

Originally Posted by the big ragu

we are still in greece, save this!!!!

The US INSTALLED FASCISTS!!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icqb1cdfZ5U"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icqb1cdfZ5U[/ame]

So much for "good". The US helps neo-Nazis! They did it in Guatemala as well! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Gu..._d%27%C3%A9tat

You still haven't answered these two points;

Look at South Korea.
There the US oversaw the institution of Syngman Rhee, a complete authoritarian, whose rule saw deaths of over 100,000 people 'suspected' of being communists, but were actually anyone who opposed his US backed regime. These deaths are even estimated to have been as high as 200,000.
Before 1950, he began to institute such measures - ie before the North invaded, and thus US knew full well what was going on. A good example is Rhee's appointment of Kim Chang-ryong, an ex-Japanese soldier as his rightly hand man and security chief - who over saw the internal gestapo policies I just described. (Note when local resistance saw Rhee resign in 1960, the US supported General Park Chung-hee's military coup which saw an even more brutal regime come to power).
Unearthing War’s Horrors Years Later in South Korea

Also look, to Japan.
The US made extensive efforts to curb democracy, by hunting down dissident groups and spreading propaganda. To see declassified US documents and scholarly reviews of such information see Mario Del Pero, Diplomatic History, 2004. See ch 1, note 66.
In the post war environment Chomsky also notes amongst US diplomatic cables and more of Kennan's writing that "Washington intended to provide Japan with "some sort of empire toward the south", in George Kennan's phrase, something like the New World Order [that the Japanese sought to create in the 30s] but within US-dominated global system, and therefore acceptable."
See page 120 Failed States.

You have totally lost. You might as well stop humiliating yourself.

The way to deal with the international left's hatred of Americans is to give the left something new to deal with. The new international order being created by China which will diminish the things the international left values.

Australia will ultimately be drawn into the Chinese orbit. Australians who hate America will have something else to think about. Australians will remember American hegemony with regret that they had a role in destroying it.

Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo

The way to deal with the international left's hatred of Americans is to give the left something new to deal with. The new international order being created by China which will diminish the things the international left values.

Well it may surprise yo to know I'm not left wing.

Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo

Australia will ultimately be drawn into the Chinese orbit.

Define orbit. Conservatives are incredibly stupid to think a new hegemon like that of America's will emerge in the same fashion. We are approaching "perpetual peace' - in Kant's words.

Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo

Australians who hate America will have something else to think about.

Like?

Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo

Australians will remember American hegemony with regret that they had a role in destroying it.

No we will be happy - so will the overwhelming majority of the world.

Americans will regret their nation was an imperial hegemon. 9/11 is evidence of the possible repercussions of such policy.

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

I never said there wasn't a cold war, I have totally acknowledged the Soviet threat, I have hwoever shown that regardless, the US acted totally for its own, imperial interests.

you have shown nothing of the sort?
you have shown interpretations and minutes from advisory notes.....
which proves that all avenues were expressed....
the US policy of containment was directed at "containing the aggressor USSR....
its really that simple....
because we are a democratic society, our every action, decision, discussion is available for public consumption after a set amount of years, freedom of discovery has given liberals, critical of US interests, to use any discussion, document to uncover a perceived cabal that simply does not and did not exist.....

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Again, I agree, the Soviet Union, was evil - how is that relevant to the US?

you agree USSR was evil....
its extremely relevant in that we were in an epic battle to contain the spread of that evil (your word)
policy makers pushed the containment of that evil which surplanted the ideals you are critical of.....
i've said it 5 times already.....real politik....
unfortunately(for you) the US had to ally itself with the status quo, conservative elements of a conflict as opposed to the leftist/liberal elements.....that is the nature of our predicament...
if you were to ask truman to promte leftist stalinist in greece, who were supported by the comintern(1936), and bulgarian, slavian communists, you would of been called before HUAC and run out of town....
the proposition is wholeheatedly STUPID!!!!
and it would of never happened!!!

NOW, i've asked you several times to not take the approach that America was in a vaccuum, take into account the environment in which these policy makers made these decisions!!!!
you have to, in order to fully grasp, why these decision makers made, and acted upon the actions they undertook!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Actually I took that line from Chalmers Johnson's book, Dismantling the Empire.

i knew it was good, but that good....phew....

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Do you not understand English?

absolutely, and i understand how definitions and meanings of words like "imperial" can be molded through the english "language"....
i see no obvious reason for expost facto regenerations of our language....
when i went to school, the definition of imperialism was pretty straight forward...
and hegemony implies a negative connotation to the reader, and the writers use denotes a political agenda?

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

I have already shown you - through economic and military intervention, all around the world. I gave you a list of over 15 such examples.

we are staying in greece, before we move on......
(this is what we agreed to)
one at a time....

you stated the communists were "legitimate"?
(i refuted that several times)
you stated thaat the greek communists were not influenced by the USSR?
(that is wrong 1936, they accepted the aims and goals of the comintern)
you stated there was no outside interference in greece?
i showed you, evidence from a marxist site, boasting.....
i also showed you that Albanian, Macedonian, Yugoslavian, Bulgarian and Soviet communists all were influential in the development of labor strikes, civil upheaval and conflict, all of which were designed to deteriorate the post war stability of greece....

question?
who would of gained from the total devastation of post war greece?

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

So basically, every bit of evidence I have is simply a "mistake", sorry but that is childish to say the least. There is a clear motive behind these actions. The US doesn't just bring about regime change "by mistake" repeatedly.

childish?
its what happened.....
greece being our subject, truman was blamed for "losing china" to communism.....
do you think for a nanosecond, he'd let greece or turkey go communist?
come on....
omnipresent in the policy makers was the spectre of losing more of the world to communists....
call that childish....whatever
its what happened....
the most powerful nation, one of the 2 superpowers, lost all of eastern europe, china and now were going to let greece and turkey....
hello!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

No, we are here to debate whether the US is a hegemonic empire, and you just admitted I was right -WIN!

powerfull-yes
superpower-yes
hegomonic- not if this denotes negativity
empire- definately not....especially after johnson's delicious attempt to rewrite the definition of imperial.....

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

LOL So if you kill 2 people I can one and its justified

killing is justified under several circumstances, one of them being WAR!!!!
if A kills one person they should suffer the consequences of that action....true, it is not justified....
but if you B kills 500 people, they too should suffer the consequences.......
this is also not justified....
but given the choice between these two above options: A or B
one is definately better than the other!!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

No you haven't, you have yet to reply to Japan and Korea. I already whooped your ass on Greece.

we are not going to korea or japan or grenada, or beirut or somalia, libya UNTIL GREECE IS finnito!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

No, you gave me a Wikipedia page. Slip, slip -oh you just fell.

i can't use wiki, is this a change in policy?
as i said, the only reason i'd have to cite, is for you, not for me....i don't have the time or the energy to cite......
don't slide down that slope....
be happy you got anything!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Yes, the US is evil - thew USSR is just MORE evil. They are both evil, though.
God smiles on the United States of America and all its friends!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

God clearly hates the US mate, but again this is irrelevant.

GOD LOVES AMERICA!!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

I showed you Truman's policy - totally unfaithful to the US' public presentations.

you got ooogats!!!!

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

Yes and these countries had no allegiance to the USSR! WIN!

eastern europe was CONTROLLED BY THE SOVIETS, they were satellite nations

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

LOL You are clearly losing. You had to go form your first source of Wikipedia, to a Marxist, biased website! LOL! Fail!

marxist- clearly ON PURPOSE!!!
do marxists lie?

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

The US INSTALLED FASCISTS!!

and the soviets exported terrorism?

Originally Posted by MegadethFan

You still haven't answered these two points;
Look at South Korea.
Unearthing War’s Horrors Years Later in South Korea
Also look, to Japan.
You have totally lost. You might as well stop humiliating yourself.

i'm close to winning in greece after you concede defeat, we'll be able to move on...

you can't win in greece, because there is no way on gods green earth that Harry Truman would of allowed the spread of communism on the peloponeseus....
i've showed his speech, his policy....do you need a sworn affadavit from the man himself?