Debate: Israel – victim or aggressor?

**beenthere** · Feb 22 2012, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by creation

Well indeed, youre example to disprove my statement fails by your own admission. It was far even from palestine, from the zoinist council of palestine and didnt involve any zionist forces.

So it wasnt an Israeli war - whats so hard about that to get?

To start with who is critter and why are you writing this word? Is it an intentional insult or a deception?

Indeed Israel was declared in May 48, prior to that the forces of the precursor to Israel, the Zionist Council, were on the move. This continued right up to May 48. Meaning that even when the Arabs moved in 48, the Zionist Council forces AND Israel if you prefer was already on the move into the arab partition areas.

As for your example, of riots, again its not a war. Not even a police action, or a move by an organised force. If thats to be counted you might as well count all the incidents of organised murder against both arabs and british almost every night for the year 1947.

It was YOU who mentioned the Yom Kippur war. You brought that example up. Rather than denying Israel was on the offensive you now admit that and instead try to justify it to us;

Specifically you admit that Israel was attacking as it was sitting on egpytian territory because, you tell us, that Israel had the right to start the previous war.

Regarding the previous war in 67, Im also Im happy to discuss as to whether that was a defensive or offensive war. Just dont call me any names, it doesnt make you look good. People reading us dont like it.

So again, by your own admission, Israel has never ever fought a defensive war.

{{{"""Well indeed, youre example to disprove my statement fails by your own admission. It was far even from palestine, from the zoinist council of palestine and didnt involve any zionist forces""}}}

Say WHATTTT, it was in the area they called "Palestine", Critter.

{{{"""So it wasnt an Israeli war - whats so hard about that to get?"""}}}

Anything that happened before May 14, 1948 was Arab riots where your beloved brethern were killing Jews and then the Jews started fighting back and your fool brethern hired and brought in ex-Nazis to help their with their Jewish problem. That didn't work either.

{{""To start with who is critter and why are you writing this word? Is it an intentional insult or a deception""}}

You call yourself "creation", so tell us what do you creat??? It is a disceptive word that comes to mind when I read your posts.

{{{"""Indeed Israel was declared in May 48, prior to that the forces of the precursor to Israel, the Zionist Council, were on the move."""}}}

What a crock of you know what. There was something called a Civil War going on that the Arabs, again, started on Dec. 2, 1947. I posted what happened and it would seem that you didn't bother to read it. So I will state it once more so you can look it up yourself. The Arabs attacked the Jews on Dec. 2, 1947 which started a Civil War. When Israel proclaimed it's self a nation the Arabs still held part of the southern area of the U.N. had partitioned to the Jews. Once more it was the Arabs causing the trouble and the Jews reacting to it.

{{{"""
As for your example, of riots, again its not a war. Not even a police action, or a move by an organised force. If thats to be counted you might as well count all the incidents of organised murder against both arabs and british almost every night for the year 1947."""}}}

Here's the difference between Arabs and Jews for the most part. The Jews attacked military targets where the Arabs attacked sleeping civilians for the most part.

**creation** · Feb 23 2012, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by beenthere

{{{"""Well indeed, youre example to disprove my statement fails by your own admission. It was far even from palestine, from the zoinist council of palestine and didnt involve any zionist forces""}}}

Say WHATTTT, it was in the area they called "Palestine", Critter.

Aden is in palestine? Remember this was your example;

Aden pogrom

An Eyewitness Account of the Aden Pogrom of 1947: A Component of the Jewish Nakba

One of the communities included in the Jewish Nakba was that of Aden, a seaport in southern Yemen.

{{{"""So it wasnt an Israeli war - whats so hard about that to get?"""}}}

Anything that happened before May 14, 1948 was Arab riots where your beloved brethern were killing Jews and then the Jews started fighting back and your fool brethern hired and brought in ex-Nazis to help their with their Jewish problem. That didn't work either.

{{""To start with who is critter and why are you writing this word? Is it an intentional insult or a deception""}}

Nonsense, before May 14 48 the Hagganah was on the offensive. In fact by May they'd cleansing villages for months. That means as soon as Israel was declared they were still on the offensive.

You call yourself "creation", so tell us what do you creat??? It is a disceptive word that comes to mind when I read your posts.

My forum name is no different than yours.

{{{"""Indeed Israel was declared in May 48, prior to that the forces of the precursor to Israel, the Zionist Council, were on the move."""}}}

What a crock of you know what. There was something called a Civil War going on that the Arabs, again, started on Dec. 2, 1947. I posted what happened and it would seem that you didn't bother to read it. So I will state it once more so you can look it up yourself. The Arabs attacked the Jews on Dec. 2, 1947 which started a Civil War. When Israel proclaimed it's self a nation the Arabs still held part of the southern area of the U.N. had partitioned to the Jews. Once more it was the Arabs causing the trouble and the Jews reacting to it.

Um lets not get into who started it, just yet. Theres plenty of stuff going on. I did read your citation of the arab riot in december. Riots are not an offensive by a country, or nation state. Its just what people naturally do when the majority population gets its land divided in favour of hundreds of thousands of immigrants.

But lets agree that the forces of the precursor to Israel, the Zionist Council, were on the move. In fact by May they'd been cleansing villages for months. That means as soon as Israel was declared they were still on the offensive.

{{{"""
As for your example, of riots, again its not a war. Not even a police action, or a move by an organised force. If thats to be counted you might as well count all the incidents of organised murder against both arabs and british almost every night for the year 1947."""}}}

Here's the difference between Arabs and Jews for the most part. The Jews attacked military targets where the Arabs attacked sleeping civilians for the most part.

Hmm not really. Jewish terrorism against civilians was extensive. Not even including the executions and forced evictions by the precursor to the IDF of first villages then entire areas. But maybe you think villages full of civilians are military targets.

However its encouraging that youve given up on claiming Yom Kippur was some defensive action just because Israelis tell you it was. You might as well tell us that the Nazis were defending when they were attacked laying deep in Russian territory.

Oh and just under the Redo button here there is a button you can use to quote passages you wish to respond to.

**Injeun** · Feb 23 2012, 07:11 PM

My introduction to the Palestinians comes from the 1972 Munich Olympics when the PLO murdered those Israeli athletes. While I am not aware of what went on previous to 1972, it wouldn't have mattered because I could not then see any reason to ever murder innocent athletes.

There has been much back and forth since then. Suicide bombers in happy Israeli roadside cafes...the white walls splattered with the blood and bone fragments of innocent Israeli diners. Bombing of suspects in the territories and the unintentional collateral damage of Palestinian bystanders. In all of this I suppose there is some wiggle room for the Palestinians at justification.

But then came 9/11 and my final conclusion regarding the Palestinians. When news of the devastation and the deaths of 3000 innocents in the USA from Al Qaeda reached the Palestinians, they emptied out into their streets in jubilant celebration. Men, women and children, both young and old were absolutely ecstatic. It was then that I realized that these people are raging savages. No-one in their right minds cheers such a thing. Since then, I watched the daily rocketing of Israel from Palestinian territory, and the eventual Israel advancement to stop the rockets. In the end I don't care what happens to the Palestinians. They aren't even Palestinians. Actually they are migrant workers and the offspring of migrant workers from all over the middle east who migrated there in the early nineteen hundreds seeking work. Now they are a pawn to the Muslim countries surrounding Israel used as an excuse to torment Israel. Palestinians spent the past fifty years plotting murder. That's why they live in poverty. They could have built a pleasant nation. Instead they build lies and bombs.

**creation** · Feb 24 2012, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Injeun

My introduction to the Palestinians comes from the 1972 Munich Olympics when the PLO murdered those Israeli athletes. While I am not aware of what went on previous to 1972, it wouldn't have mattered because I could not then see any reason to ever murder innocent athletes.

There has been much back and forth since then. Suicide bombers in happy Israeli roadside cafes...the white walls splattered with the blood and bone fragments of innocent Israeli diners. Bombing of suspects in the territories and the unintentional collateral damage of Palestinian bystanders. In all of this I suppose there is some wiggle room for the Palestinians at justification.

But then came 9/11 and my final conclusion regarding the Palestinians. When news of the devastation and the deaths of 3000 innocents in the USA from Al Qaeda reached the Palestinians, they emptied out into their streets in jubilant celebration. Men, women and children, both young and old were absolutely ecstatic. It was then that I realized that these people are raging savages. No-one in their right minds cheers such a thing. Since then, I watched the daily rocketing of Israel from Palestinian territory, and the eventual Israel advancement to stop the rockets. In the end I don't care what happens to the Palestinians. They aren't even Palestinians. Actually they are migrant workers and the offspring of migrant workers from all over the middle east who migrated there in the early nineteen hundreds seeking work. Now they are a pawn to the Muslim countries surrounding Israel used as an excuse to torment Israel. Palestinians spent the past fifty years plotting murder. That's why they live in poverty. They could have built a pleasant nation. Instead they build lies and bombs.

Americans tend to be wilfully ignorant on this subect but Ill assume you dont want to be so, would you like to debate any of the above stuff? The bolded parts are interesting, have you explored anything of the palestinians and their experiences?

ANything from their side? Or do you take it all from israeli sources?

**beenthere** · Feb 24 2012, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by creation

Aden is in palestine? Remember this was your example;
[QUOTE

I didn't say Aden was in Palestine, I just said that once again we had Arabs attacking and killing Jews with absolutely no provocation. You know, the usual Arab past time.

[QUOTE
Nonsense, before May 14 48 the Hagganah was on the offensive. In fact by May they'd cleansing villages for months. That means as soon as Israel was declared they were still on the offensive.[QUOTE

And again,. my silly Arab friend, you are wrong. When the Arabs started killing Jews on Dec. 2, 1947 the Jews attacked back and the war was on. When Israel anounced it's formation Arabs were still in control of some of the southern areas in what had just became Israel. And the fighting from the civil war wasn't over. But of course your Arab League then attacked and got their collective butts kicked.

[QUOTE
My forum name is no different than yours. [QUOTE

And what's your point???

[QUOTE
Um lets not get into who started it, just yet. Theres plenty of stuff going on. I did read your citation of the arab riot in december. Riots are not an offensive by a country, or nation state. Its just what people naturally do when the majority population gets its land divided in favour of hundreds of thousands of immigrants.
[QUOTE

True but once more Arabs started killing Jews with no cause, .... again. And you get upset because the Jews fought back??????? NONSENSE!!!

[QUOTE
But lets agree that the forces of the precursor to Israel, the Zionist Council, were on the move. In fact by May they'd been cleansing villages for months. That means as soon as Israel was declared they were still on the offensive.[QUOTE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War
Arab Higher Committee of Amin al-Husayni
Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni with aides and Palestinian irregulars of the Holy War Army, Jerusalem district, February 1948
Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee, had collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II. In 1940, he asked the Axis Powers to acknowledge the Arab right "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy

http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48891477.html

A few rag-tag Jewish militiamen manage to stave off a coordinated Arab onslaught.
by Mitchell Bard
Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the United Nations announced partition on November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote that the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood..."

No, let's agree that the Arabs started killing Jews without just cause again. And let's agree that the Arabs tried to barricade Jerusalem and starve out the Jews but they fought through and were able to relieve those in Jerusalem.

.[QUOTE
Hmm not really. Jewish terrorism against civilians was extensive. Not even including the executions and forced evictions by the precursor to the IDF of first villages then entire areas. But maybe you think villages full of civilians are military targets..[QUOTE

Rubbish;
http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/biglies06.pdf
http://zionsake.tripod.com/pal-refugees.htm

However its encouraging that youve given up on claiming Yom Kippur was some defensive action just because Israelis tell you it was. You might as well tell us that the Nazis were defending when they were attacked laying deep in Russian territory.[/QUOTE]

Say WHATT???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_war
The war began when the coalition launched a joint surprise attack on Israel on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in Judaism, which coincided with the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ara...li_War_of_1973
Egypt and Syria attempted to regain the territory Israeli forces gained during the 1967 war. Their armies launched a joint surprise attack on October 6 1973, on the tenth day of the Muslim month of Ramadan, which coincided with the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur that year.

http://www.fanpop.com/spots/egypt/ar...raeli-war-1973
Egypt and Syria initiated the conflict to regain territories that Israel had occupied since the Six-Day War of 1967.

How much of this do you want??? There are only several million sites saying the same thing. And, Critter, I was 27 years old when your Arab buddies invaded Israel in 73', so your barking up the wrong tree.

.[/QUOTE]
Oh and just under the Redo button here there is a button you can use to quote passages you wish to respond to.[/QUOTE]

Give me something with pistons and rods and I can do most anything with it but electronics...... forget it.

**beenthere** · Feb 24 2012, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by creation

Americans tend to be wilfully ignorant on this subect but Ill assume you dont want to be so, would you like to debate any of the above stuff? The bolded parts are interesting, have you explored anything of the palestinians and their experiences?

ANything from their side? Or do you take it all from israeli sources?

Critter I'm not ignorant on any thing to do with middle east history. And I KNOW who did what to whom, when, where, and why!!!

**creation** · Feb 27 2012, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by beenthere

I didn't say Aden was in Palestine, I just said that once again we had Arabs attacking and killing Jews with absolutely no provocation. You know, the usual Arab past time.

Indeed in response to my statement you told us that there was an anti jewish pogrom in aden. Didnt you?

So you pulled in a pogrom somwhere else to counter the point about Israeli wars.
By the same token I might as well explain to you about the internment of Japanese americans with absolutely no provocation. After all what does it matter right? Even if there is only the most tenuous of connections, that is enough...correct?

Nonsense, before May 14 48 the Hagganah was on the offensive. In fact by May they'd cleansing villages for months. That means as soon as Israel was declared they were still on the offensive.

And again,. my silly Arab friend, you are wrong. When the Arabs started killing Jews on Dec. 2, 1947 the Jews attacked back and the war was on. When Israel anounced it's formation Arabs were still in control of some of the southern areas in what had just became Israel. And the fighting from the civil war wasn't over. But of course your Arab League then attacked and got their collective butts kicked.

My silly arab friend? Is that comment the sort of behaviour youre proud of? Would you speak like that to people in your own neighborhood?

The arabs had been getting attacked for decades previously. The arab riot you mention was in response to a number of outrages including the partition decision.
Further, before during and after the very day and the very minute Israel was declared, its forces were on the offensive, arab armies moved after that, not before. Further they had already moved beyond the parition lines theyd agreed to. Therefore again Israelis have never ever fought a defensive war.

My forum name is no different than yours.

And what's your point???

The point is there is no reason to be anything other than entirely respectful and call me by my forum name....not critter, not creature, not creative....not anything other than creation.
As a man you need to Treat others as you would expect to be treated yourself.

Um lets not get into who started it, just yet. Theres plenty of stuff going on. I did read your citation of the arab riot in december. Riots are not an offensive by a country, or nation state. Its just what people naturally do when the majority population gets its land divided in favour of hundreds of thousands of immigrants.

True but once more Arabs started killing Jews with no cause, .... again. And you get upset because the Jews fought back??????? NONSENSE!!!

Why do you keep saying no cause? Do you really think no violence had occurred before Dec 47? Or that nothing had been done to anyone? I had thought you at least had some knowledge of this history.

And Im not getting upset, all I said was Israel has never fought a defensive war. Youre the one trying to deny this.

But lets agree that the forces of the precursor to Israel, the Zionist Council, were on the move. In fact by May they'd been cleansing villages for months. That means as soon as Israel was declared they were still on the offensive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War
Arab Higher Committee of Amin al-Husayni
Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni with aides and Palestinian irregulars of the Holy War Army, Jerusalem district, February 1948

A few rag-tag Jewish militiamen manage to stave off a coordinated Arab onslaught.
by Mitchell Bard
Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the United Nations announced partition on November 29, 1947.

Again you prove my point. Zionist forces were in action long before Feb 48, arab riots were in response to previous actions.

No, let's agree that the Arabs started killing Jews without just cause again. And let's agree that the Arabs tried to barricade Jerusalem and starve out the Jews but they fought through and were able to relieve those in Jerusalem.

Why no cause?Why do you keep saying that? On what basis do you keep saying no cause?

Hmm not really. Jewish terrorism against civilians was extensive. Not even including the executions and forced evictions by the precursor to the IDF of first villages then entire areas. But maybe you think villages full of civilians are military targets..

Rubbish;
http://www.standwithus.com/pdfs/flyers/biglies06.pdf
http://zionsake.tripod.com/pal-refugees.htm

Look you cant just offer dumb blog offerings and flyers. Try reading a book and reference that. Or just use a website that sources from a creditable work.
I suggest you use Joan Peters From Time Immemorial, she probably has alot of things to say youd agree with. Or Alan Dershowitz perhaps.

Lets just re state what youre going to be so keen to disprove....

Jewish terrorism against civilians was extensive.

That means bombs placed in market places and work places, that means kidnapping and executions.

Not even including the destruction of houses with people in, as well as executions and forced evictions by the precursor to the IDF of first villages then entire areas. But maybe you think villages full of civilians are military targets..

And youll really hate this.....hundreds of thousands of arabs fled of their own accord, and also hundreds of thousands of arabs were forced out at gunpoint, then their homes were bulldozed and the villages wiped out - some 400 of them.

Now thats just gotta get right up your nose eh?

**creation** · Feb 27 2012, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by beenthere

Say WHATT???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_war
The war began when the coalition launched a joint surprise attack on Israel on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in Judaism, which coincided with the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ara...li_War_of_1973
Egypt and Syria attempted to regain the territory Israeli forces gained during the 1967 war. Their armies launched a joint surprise attack on October 6 1973, on the tenth day of the Muslim month of Ramadan, which coincided with the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur that year.

http://www.fanpop.com/spots/egypt/ar...raeli-war-1973
Egypt and Syria initiated the conflict to regain territories that Israel had occupied since the Six-Day War of 1967.

How much of this do you want??? There are only several million sites saying the same thing. And, Critter, I was 27 years old when your Arab buddies invaded Israel in 73', so your barking up the wrong tree.

.

Ooooh look, youve quoted wiki. What a smooth move.

Would you agree then that that Whermact on the Eastern front were fighting a defensive war ?

Or was it the Soviets that were defending their own land?

Give me something with pistons and rods and I can do most anything with it but electronics...... forget it.

Thats cool, perhaps then you could be more appreciative of my efforts to tidy up your comments for everyone to read rather than calling me names like critter or my silly arab friend.

Indeed, you should keep practicing though. Look on google books for more middle eastern history. Ill even recommend Norman Finkelstein or Avi Shlaim as very well researched historians.

**Khalil** · Feb 27 2012, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by beenthere

You do?? That's when and where it all begain. It's something called "The history of the conflict". Or, don't you believe in looking at the whole thing???

Nice way to quote me out of context, next time don't do that (sorry for late reply, did not realize people were talking in this thread).

I said this:

I find it hysterical that you try to base your information on what happened in the Middle East “right after WW1” when you skipped to the Partition Plan immediately, which was after WWII! (nor was this a response to you but to some other guy a few months ago)

By the way, I haven't noticed all these people talking in this thread until today! It was dead for a while, and now all of sudden I see 5 new pages...