Thread: Debate: Israel – victim or aggressor?

Dude your on Fire , I like this guy !

Originally Posted by Mr_Truth

here's the proof:









The books were written by Israelis who condemn the racist imperialism of their government - therefore, nobody can say these writings constitute "anti-semitism" or hatred for Jews.

Oh, yes, they were real bullies in 1948 were they not when 5 Arab nations attacked them?

They were real bullies when Egypt tryed to cut off their port in 1956 which is an act of war. They were real bullies when Nassar was proclaiming that he was going to wiipe Israel off the face of the earth in 1967, right?? They were real bullies when the Arab armies hit them in 1973, right??? They were real bullies when they finally go tired of palestinian terrorist attacking them from Lebanon and attacked back, right??

Here, go read all about it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_terrorist

Wow he makes this fun (Finally)

Originally Posted by beenthere

To start with "Palestine" was NEVER a nation, country, or State. Take a look at a 1920 map of "Palestine".

http://www.justicenow4israel.com/mandatemap.html

Please tell me who has the majority of the land in the area known as "Palestine" today. You will find the southern sections of both Syria and Lebanon made up of northern Palestine. Trans-Jordan, now the nation, Jordan, took 77% of the area known as Palestine. Do you hear any of the so called "Palestinians" objecting and demanding their "Land" back??? 47% of the area that was left the British put in a land bank called "Crown Lands" because nobody owned it. Israel didn't take anybodys land, the people on the land were just now Israeli citizens up to the point they left and or picked up arms against Israel.

Huh? That BOLDED PART OF YOUR RESPONSE makes no sense to me.

Why not answering my other questions?

You have not answered any of them, as of yet.

Also, you only need to put 1 ? or ! or . for me (or anyone else) to understand.
Just saying.

Oh, yes, they were real bullies in 1948 were they not when 5 Arab nations attacked them?

Who invited them to invade and settle in Palestine? If someone stole the lunch of 5 kids and they joined up and fought him off, would they be in the wrong?

Originally Posted by Gator Monroe

It's the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (KKKK) AND THEY WERE LITIGATED OUTTA Existence in 1986 by the SPLC all other modern incarnations of Klans are Wannabees.

Its obvious that some of our members are ignorant of our radicals and domestic terrorists mission statements! Ha ha~ Some of the acts committed were truly terrorist in nature and some of the radicals had crime committed on them in the form of Gestapo like federal goons murdering and denying them their civil and other rights. Waco and ruby ridge was a good example of federal goons attacking civilians and people that wanted to do their own thing. Be aware I am not defending Koresh and the Branch Davidians alleged crimes against children, I am defending the their right to worship as they wish and their right to stockpiling weapons food whatever they wanted to. The real reason they were attacked was that the feds feared and loathed Koresh. How dare he thumb his nose at their authority!!!

As far as the Klan burning JC in effigy that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. They light a cross to ask for Jesus approval for what they (erroneously) think is a rightful agenda. I might add that there are as many Klan factions (all with different bylaws) as there are southern states. Some are as harmless as the local elks club and others are the most raciest and dumbly dangerous people I have ever met. Blanket statements are for nothing but to show the ignorance of the people that use them. McVeigh was warped, twisted insane and angry because of the Ruby ridge atrocity where federal goons blew the brains out of a mother while she was holding her baby. I too am beyond angry with that ugly troll of a woman that approved of lethal use of force, but would not have bombed innocent for that or any other reason.

reva

Originally Posted by Mr_Truth

Who invited them to invade and settle in Palestine? If someone stole the lunch of 5 kids and they joined up and fought him off, would they be in the wrong?

I think you will find that using logic and reasoning with the usual suspects is a waste of time. Israel is a sovereign state and has been for decades. Palestine has NEVER ever NEVER been a nation*. Its a geographical area much like Appalachia is in the USA. At one time TN was part of NC, in that respect I as a Tennessean have more of a right to declare Appalachia a Nation*area than the Palestinians have declaring Palestine a nation. The reason being that this area really was a state at one time.

*..(its a geographical area)

If anyone is really want to know the truth about Palestine and the confusing reasons it has NEVER been a nation here are a couple of fine sources;

The True History of Palestine: The Nation-State Fallacy
www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/13-468.aspx
5 posts - 4 authors - Oct 31, 2005
Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed by Arab ... was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964.

There is no such thing as 'Palestine' nor 'Palestinian people ...
mytorah.wordpress.com/.../there-is-no-such-thing-as-palestine-nor-pa...
Apr 14, 2011 – There has never been a country called 'Palestine' and there is no such thing .... 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

http://mytorah.wordpress.com/2011/04...tinian-people/


NEVER AGAIN

reva

Originally Posted by RevAnarchist

I think you will find that using logic and reasoning with the usual suspects is a waste of time. Israel is a sovereign state and has been for decades. Palestine has NEVER ever NEVER been a nation*. Its a geographical area much like Appalachia is in the USA. At one time TN was part of NC, in that respect I as a Tennessean have more of a right to declare Appalachia a Nation*area than the Palestinians have declaring Palestine a nation. The reason being that this area really was a state at one time.

*..(its a geographical area)

If anyone is really want to know the truth about Palestine and the confusing reasons it has NEVER been a nation here are a couple of fine sources;

The True History of Palestine: The Nation-State Fallacy
www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/13-468.aspx
5 posts - 4 authors - Oct 31, 2005
Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed by Arab ... was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964.

There is no such thing as 'Palestine' nor 'Palestinian people ...
mytorah.wordpress.com/.../there-is-no-such-thing-as-palestine-nor-pa...
Apr 14, 2011 – There has never been a country called 'Palestine' and there is no such thing .... 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

http://mytorah.wordpress.com/2011/04...tinian-people/


NEVER AGAIN

reva

Do you believe a people have a right to self-determination? Yes or no? Ethnic identity is not a requirement for nation building. Most of Israel's population was foreign, so your argument above is contradictory, since ti would also nullify Israel's statehood if accepted.

The Palestinians have the right to create a free and independent Palestine both legally and morally. You should know that:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Originally Posted by Goomba

One can't overlook Israel's unilateral declaration of independence (instead of working out a settlement with the Palestinians, they disregarded them and went their own way).

Unilateral? Israel's creation was in keeping with the legally valid United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.

Originally Posted by beenthere

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War
Benny Morris has argued that although, by the end of 1947, the Palestinians "had a healthy and demoralising respect for the Yishuv's military power", they believed that in decades or centuries "the Jews, like the medieval crusader kingdoms, would ultimately be overcome by the Arab world".[41]

On the eve of the war, the number of Arab troops likely to be committed to the war was about 23,000 (10,000 Egyptians, 4,500 Jordanians, 3,000 Iraqis, 3,000 Syrians, 2,000 ALA volunteers, 1,000 Lebanese and some Saudi Arabians), in addition to the irregular Palestinians already present. The Yishuv had 35,000 troops of the Haganah, 3,000 of Stern and Irgun and a few thousand armed settlers.

And you don't think the Arab nations didn't supply weapons???

When did I say that?

Originally Posted by beenthere

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War
The forces of Syria and Egypt launched attacks outside of the proposed Arab section of the Partition Plan.[92] Jordan invaded the proposed "Corpus Separatum", which had yet to be instituted, including the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. The official motives for their intervention were set out in a statement[93] of 15 May 1948 :
It doesn't refute it, it just shows who, what, when, where, and how. You left that out. The fact that 5 Arab nations attacked Israel who hadn't been a nation for 24 hours shows the mind set of the Arabs in the area.

Yeah, so as I said, you didnt refute anything I said.

Originally Posted by beenthere

You think so???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots
The 1920 Palestine riots, or Nabi Musa riots, took place in British Mandate of Palestine April 4–7, 1920 in and around the Old City of Jerusalem.
The events coincided with and are named after the Christian/Muslim Easter holiday Nabi Musa and followed rising tensions in Arab-Jewish relations over the implications of Zionist immigration, tensions which coincided with attacks on outlying Jewish settlements in the Galilee.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php
On Friday, August 23, Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa, and other parts of the country. The Old City of Jerusalem was hit particularly hard
Need I continue or does this establish the fact as to who started the terrorist attacks???

Sighting riots is kind of dumb, since one could go back to this:
The first wave of modern Jewish migration to Ottoman-ruled Palestine, known as the First Aliyah, began in 1881, as Jews fled pogroms in Eastern Europe.[58] Although the Zionist movement already existed in practice, Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl is credited with founding political Zionism,[59] a movement which sought to establish a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, by elevating the Jewish Question to the international plane.[60] In 1896, Herzl published Der Judenstaat (The State of the Jews), offering his vision of a future Jewish state; the following year he presided over the first World Zionist Congress.[61]

The Second Aliyah (1904–14), began after the Kishinev pogrom; some 40,000 Jews settled in Palestine, although nearly half of them later left.[58] Both the first and second waves of migrants were mainly Orthodox Jews,[62] although the Second Aliyah included socialist groups who established the kibbutz movement.[63] During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour sent a letter that stated:[64]

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[65]

The Jewish Legion, a group primarily of Zionist volunteers, assisted in the British conquest of Palestine in 1917. Arab opposition to British rule and Jewish immigration led to the 1920 Palestine riots and the formation of a Jewish militia known as the Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi, or Stern Gang, paramilitary groups later split off.[66] In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine under terms similar to the Balfour Declaration.[67] The population of the area at this time was predominantly Arab and Muslim, with Jews accounting for about 11% of the population.[68]

The Third (1919–1923) and Fourth Aliyahs (1924–1929) brought an additional 100,000 Jews to Palestine.[58]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
As you can see, Palestinians didn't just start rioting all of a sudden. They were being swamped by immigrants under foreign occupation. I dont condone their violence, but as I say there are serious grounds here to say the Palestinians' rights were being infringed upon.