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Old 02-07-2010, 10:57 AM
Scarlet Lux Scarlet Lux is offline
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Originally Posted by Flyflicker View Post
Maybe, or maybe we need to reform government first.
Yes we do but reforming the government will take a lot of work, I'm talking within the current structure.
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyflicker View Post
Regardless of how we feel about the current health care reform debate, of whether said reform would bring down costs or not, there is one thing on which we all should agree: The current system is not sustainable over the long haul.
reflating bubbles is such fun. The major assets will continue to deflate, but the necessities will inflate. Congrats government, you have "saved" us.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Madthane View Post
You know whats funny to me about Republicans? They cry about the Trillions it's going to cost for Obama's health care plan for all Americans yet the Trillions the Bush Family spent on the "Bush Family Wars" (Iraq 1 and 2) was ok.
The fact that the Bush family has used the US army like its own "Merc" squad to help family and friends interests costing not only American's Trillions of dollars but thousands of American lives is ok. Obama wants to spend similar amounts to help US citizens get health care...there is outrage! (How dare he!)

Maybe the next election we can vote for Jed Bush and see what other countries the BUSH family needs to attack? maybe Iraq 3?
This thread isn't about the cost of war, so I won't engage your amazing leap of consciousness on the "Bush War". As the was said above, Congress votes , and without it the President doesn't get to act.

The issue at hand is the cost of the Health Care Bill as proposed by the Senate and House Democrats doesn't lower the cost of healthcare and doesn't insure everyone. Those were the two stated goals at the beginning, so i think the real question is what purpose does it serve if not to satisfy those goals?
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Reiver View Post
Health care is, at the very least, a merit good. This ensures that subsidies are required (Note: its not as clear cut as simply referring to positive externalities as we can also factor in public good characteristics). Once we also factor in other problems, using the market to allocate will generate sources of inefficiency. For example, the patient/consumer is likely to suffer the moral hazard of profiteering generated by asymmetric information (e.g. we dont know what we need and what necessarily works, so we are offered expensive treatments that do not work). Indeed, these information problems will- with competition- lead to a race to the bottom (where poor delivery, given the profit opportunities, becomes the norm). With a national system, we can also factor in the gains from planning (e.g. a means to co-ordinate provision to secure economies of scale and such like) and assorted other bargaining benefits
Once again, we have to realize that Health Care of is less than 120 years old, and I'll argue that Healthcare really didn't start in current form until after WWII. Before that time most people died of natural causes and infection. There were no chemical or surgical cures. I struggle as people try to commoditize a set of skills and technologies that are so much in their infancy.

How do you come to the conclusion that healthcare s a merit good? Do you consider insulin for a diabetic a merit good? How about antibiotics? What about Chiropractic care? What about Viagra? What about Botox injections?

This is the problem, people are under the impression that Health Care is a gift that should be bestowed on everyone, as if it is a right under the Constitution. The art of Medicine is just finding its legs, so it will have its fluxes as new technology allows us to help and save more lives. The cost of healthcare has always been an expensive part of our lives. That is why many people had their children at home until the 1940's.

The damage to a model for the open technological growth of modern medicine was when the employer took on the responsibility of providing health insurance. This reduced the workers ability to choose and select the medical model that best fit their needs and in turn slowed the demand pressures for ineffective and overly costly medicines and procedures. Release this model and watch the cost of healthcare level off and eventually lower as we see technology improvements improve efficiency.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Lux View Post
While an NHS system seems pretty nice with the way the government is we can't get it yet. We first need to reform the healthcare system slowly. We cannot sprint to the finish line but going slow and steady will win us the race.
Do you want to reform the Healthcare or the Health Insurance Industry??
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:33 PM
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I understand the practicality problems with it all. However, I'm not sure about this notion of evolutionary reform. Whilst it looks quite rational, it is unfortunately just likely to lead to the system being stuck at an alternative inefficient outcome
I'll ask the same question here...Is it Health Insurance that needs to be reformed or Healthcare?
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:34 PM
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Yes we do but reforming the government will take a lot of work, I'm talking within the current structure.
All it takes is people voting their mind instead of their party.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:08 PM
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All it takes is people voting their mind instead of their party.
That would work in a democratic system but we live in a system in which votes are manipulated by the media, defuse the media and you allow a much more free, democratic vote.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:14 PM
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That would work in a democratic system but we live in a system in which votes are manipulated by the media, defuse the media and you allow a much more free, democratic vote.
Yes, the media has far too much influence, and now especially with the latest Supreme Court decision. The thing we have to keep reminding ourselves is that at the end of the day we make the decision. We get to step behind the curtain and place our vote and no one has to know who or what we cast our ballot for. It is our responsibility and we have to own the consequences of our decisions.
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:31 AM
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That would work in a democratic system but we live in a system in which votes are manipulated by the media, defuse the media and you allow a much more free, democratic vote.
There are too many mindless drones who allow themselves to be manipulated by the media. How do we convince them that most of what is in TV ads is pure bunk?

Maybe if everyone had a DVR and used it, commercial television would be a thing of the past.
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