And how is this any morally different then someone holding a gun to my head and asking for my wallet?

Taxation is robbery. I don't care if the robber thinks he's a saint for robbing guys like me and giving it to soup kitchens. I should decide based on my own morals where my charitable nature goes. If at all. I worked for that money, it's my God-(*)(*)(*)(*) money.

The government has no right to take the fruits of my labor when I'm an innocent, hard working, citizen. Taxation should be left as a punishment, not a duty.

As someone who is poor, I'm well aware of the bennefits of a socialist system. I barely had to pay any taxes, I got payed minimum wage for bassically sitting on my ass at my last job. It was a pretty cushy deal.


But I'm not here to defend what I want, I'm here to defend what is right. And it's not right that someone should have to pay me more then I'm actually worth to the company.

It's not right that innocent people should be coerced into giving up large sums of money to the government and we don't even know where the hell that money is going to go.


It's not right that some jealous bastard socialists want to create a classless state because they're not happy with their role inlife. Thus screwing everybody else out of their hardwork and talent.

It's not right that someone should be forced to drag around the deadweight of the povershed.

It's not right that the tax system is so complicated when the government is so demanding, they should be simple enough for a ten year old to do.

It's not right that do to labor laws, we cannot hire children and thus increase the overall income of a household to prevent poverty.

It's not right that with all the regulations, a company is forced to layoff employees thus increasing the poverty line because they don't have the means to continue hireing so many workers and it's becoming unprofitable to do so.



You think we're stupid is what it is. You think we don't know that the government does all this on purpose. That they purposely (*)(*)(*)(*) with the economy to put millions of us into a dependant state of welfare. They hold a check over our head and tell us to rollover, play dead, and do all kinds of other tricks.


The more regulations and taxes, the more doggies they have to train. And before you know it, there's nobody left to put these (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s in their place.


The government is not my friend, the government is not my parents, the government is not my lover, nor my God..

Therefore, I don't give a (*)(*)(*)(*) what the government thinks. The government is just a cluster of secretive power hungry people who manipulated their way to the top and want to make sure nobody else could reach such a position from honost capitalism. Hard work and natural talent should prevail over family dynasty and hand-me-outs.

And yet look at our political process, we're gonna be going twenty (*)(*)(*)(*)ing years of a Bush/Clinton roller coaster. Is this even America anymore?

What I meant was you need to distinguish between reality and your ideal fantasy.

It's sort of like saying "why can't I just ignore gravity and go soaring". It would be pretty sweet if you could just fly when you feel like it, but you can't.

Similarly while in your fictional Libertopia you can can do whatever you want you are stuck here in reality for now.

So I'll note that you are a Libertarian by ideology. You want to treat those below you as bad as is economically possible (even to true monopsony) I get it. Libertopia is a whole different discussion.

In this thread could we discuss minimum wage as it relates to a world where people support making things better for the poor so long as it doesn't harm the economy as a whole.

I.e. Does minimum wage harm the poor?

Does it otherwise harm the economy?

Providing evidence related to claims from the thousands of implementations of minimum wage laws would be ideal for making such a point.

Read my last post, it's ethically wrong, and creates a dependence on big government.


I've seen drug dealers more trustworthy...

That's a different discussion. And one that wouldn't belong intthe "economics and trade" board anyway.


We're talking about a minimum wage here not welfare or something. A minimum wage is just a law that doesn't require much, if any, additional government personnel to regulate..

just because the people benefitting from minimum wage are in lower skilled job fields doesnt mean that they are low level or in some way unimportant to our society.

Ah, the minimum wage - sadly an issue that is more often seen through a murky prism of politics than with the objectivity of economics. There are two sides to this coin:

Firstly, a minimum wage, if set too high, can cause inflation, unemployment, and a whole host of other nasties that will make the economy cough and splutter. On the other hand, if it is set at a "reasonable" (for "reasonable" see "low") rate it is very unlikely to be a major contributor to inflationary pressure, will prevent worker exploitation, and will help the economy (even the Board of WalMart recognize that there is no point paying their workers rates so low that they cannot afford to shop in WalMart themselves!)

The US has a Federal minimum wage and most states have their own minimum wages (usually set significantly above the Fed rate) and yet the US enjoys low employment and low (labor push) inflation. The same is true of countries like the UK where minimum wage levels are set low enough not to harm businesses but high enough to prevent exploitation.

Another obvious advantage (from a business perspective) is that legislated minimum wages put unions of business. Ironically though, there are times when minimum wages can actually keep people in depressed wage brackets since some people will continue to take home a minimum wage when their free-market worth might be higher.