School vouchers....

I know it is a touchy issue and it is debated a lot... but it should really only come down to one main issue...

Does Government Run Schools offer the BEST Education available?? It is perfect and can not be improved?

If Yes... then no need for vouchers...

If No... Then Americans should be allowed to take their money and invest it in their child's education the way the parents best see fit.

Do you disagree??

Lets hear why......

Oilguy

I'm against vouchers - there are not enough private schools so it would leave 80% of kids in bad schools. I am for charter schools - it creates true competition, and forces the public schools to change.

AZ has the most liberal charter law in the nation - and we now have a far broader amount of options available. Even a few school districts are opening charters so that they can get around policies that suck up mioney and time best spent on kids.

__________________
Either we'll succeed, or we won't succeed. And the definition of success as I described is sectarian violence down. Success is not no violence." --GW. Bush

So we're just talkin here right?
Lets say vouchers are passed....
Fact: Government spends an average of $8K per kid in government run schools.
So...According to 2005 census released in 06 there is 53.3 million kids ages 5 through 17 in the US... Lets say they all go to Government school... (doesn't matter because we all pay taxes for them to anyway)

That is $426,400,000,000 that would flood the market and be up for grabs!
Are you saying that in the amount of time it would take to get the "New" system up and running and make voucher available for parents looking to do better for their children >>> Entrepreneurs won't be able to set up private schools and offer a high quality product with well trained instructors to see if they can capture some of that cash? After all... you said that government schools are "BAD".
I say>> Let have a choice >> I am Pro Choice! I want the right to choose a school for my girls and be able to put the money I pay in Taxes for education to the institution I choose....
Some people LOVE the Government school their kids are currently going to... They can keep them there... I am saying that they should have that choice.


Let open it up and give parent more choices.... Why limit it to Government School or Charter's?? Blow the doors off and lets see what happens.... Why soo much fear??[/b]

NO TO VOUCHERS

It will only help the smartest kids, and leave everyone else behind. And what do you do for the mental needs kids. What school wants them.

I don't understand your logic....
Giving parents school choice only help smart kids?? How?
Leave everyone else behind?? How?
What do the kids with mental problems get now??

If you care enough to post... at least think about it and complete a thought...

Sooo much fear? I have none in that regard. The are plenty of private industries that run charters. Not all the public schools are bad, either - there tends to be better schools in states willing to spend more money - but hell, that is the marketplace! I come from the state that spends second to the least - and one fifth of our kids drop out. If someone wants to raise what we spend to 8,000$ per kid - sounds fine to me!

Where are the teachers going to come from in all those new private schools? Just curious.

__________________
Either we'll succeed, or we won't succeed. And the definition of success as I described is sectarian violence down. Success is not no violence." --GW. Bush

Thats great... I hate to see that private industry has to subsidize education with all the tax money that we are currently spending... but more power to them... I hope they get their moneys worth. I understand more are run as a non profit.
Just curious... What do they get out of it... Satisfaction of helping? Tax Shelter? Train young future workers? Strengthening local community?
Again... Just wondering.

I DO understand that... But can they be better? Should parents be forced to send their child to a certain school within a district even if a parent wants them to go to a different school??..
Also... Spending more doesn't equal better schools... Look at DC schools... Very bad schools with very high spending.


$8000 was a number release a few years ago... that was the national average per student... I know it varies from state to state.. and town to town... but there are much higher and much lower $$$'s spent per student.
And we can say that it is the marketplace... because we don't have a choice.. Market place would provide a choice... wouldn't it?

Now you are thinking!... I just use the $ amount for example... it is probably higher that what I am posting...
$426,400,000,000 is based on 53.3 million students as of 05 @$8K each.
So that money would be scheduled to hit the market on XX/XX/XX and everyone knows it...
There are some good teachers out there... right?? Well they have a skill that would be in HIGH demand >> wouldn't you agree??

The teachers now know that they have a marketable skill and experience that would be at a premium and the new schools opening up want to offer the best education at the best possible price... this goes for the government run schools as well... Teachers get paid! Their status level goes up! They are respected even more than they are now and they will have offer in their mail box if they ever find themselves dissatisfied with their current job.

Now when the demand goes up for teachers >> What will the market do? Supply new teachers.... you will have colleges gearing up for the flood of new teachers looking to enter the workforce... you will see people changing careers to become teachers that just couldn't because earlier because of pay.

Do you see how it could benefit everyone involved??

Except the Teachers Union. Of course.

I think they get employees able to work - read, write, compute, maybe even think!

Spending is only part of the formula - lack of bureacracy is another huge layer - it sucks the lifeblood out of school. The top expenses in a school should be teachers, supplies, and building maintenance. Get rid of the layers of federal, state and local red tape - and stop making schools responsible for raising children that parents won't take the time for.

$8000 sounds about average - we pay less than 6000$ and I know NY pays something like 20,000$. Charters, in AZ, get 800$ less per pupil and no building funds - but several are excelling schools because they have minial requirements - just federal safety and handicapped laws.

Yes, there are good teachers out there - and I agree this could attract more - but there are some lousy ones too. More important, some states will still have to deal with union issues - and others won't. AZ is a 'right to work' state. That law artifically depressed wages and benefits for a long time - but it has led to an exceedingly healthy economy for the last decade or two.

My problem with vouchers is that it's a big govt handout to parents - taking money from nonparents. What about the parents who take 8K per kid, then 'homeschool' them in dealing drugs? What constitutes a school - my living room? Charter rules give some oversight - and you better bet industry is involved here. AZ is the only state to vote Forbes for prez in the primaries.

__________________
Either we'll succeed, or we won't succeed. And the definition of success as I described is sectarian violence down. Success is not no violence." --GW. Bush

I think that is a fair assessment.. It seems like a good tax shelter also... but at least someone benefits from it that could really use it.

I agree... Have you ever thought about this.... What would it take to open a school and have it be successful? How many students would you accept? What would you look for in a teaching staff? (educators license or specialize degree with educators license) What would operating cost really be? Bus(s) Building? Payrole? Administration? Utilities? Books? Etc...
If you had 50 kids... or 100 kids... That would be $400,000 to $800,000 a year to educate them... could it be done?? Could you do a better job than what you have seen in your career?


yeah... It seems to me that those numbers are 4 or 5 years old and I know that is a budget that goes up a % without calling it an increase... so it is safe to say that it is much more than that now.

Well think about this... if you were in charge of hiring for a school that decided that they were going to offer a top quality education... would you be able to spot these teachers during the interview and past job performance checks?
You could also test these teachers as much as the students get checked by studying the performance or the children in their classes....
There is one thing that I love about being a private business owner... I choose who works for me... And if I don't want Union teachers... I just don't hire any. That way I have more control over my own business and I can negotiate a wage that might be higher than the teacher may have gotten with Union negotiators. Also.. If I can't find good teachers in a state that has unions pushing their weight around... I will go to another state and do business.

I agree that no plan is perfect... but I have a fundamental disagreement with calling them "Government handouts"... I know it is a catchy phrase and it will probably lead to getting off topic but it is our money that we paid in >> in the form of taxation and if it is for our kids education we should be able to direct it where we best see fit...
Also... as far as just handing out check like they did after Katrina... No way! That will just lead to trouble. It will be more of a controlled thing the way I see it in my head... You decide where you are going to place your kid and then you or the school file the paperwork to get funded. As for Homeschoolers... I think they would qualify as a private school... there are a number of private school academy's and small support groups that are very diligent in what they do... but your right... there are some bad apples out there that would be irresponsible and cause trouble for everyone...
For those people that want to homeschool and qualify for that money I would say that they need to show results... I know everyone has a different idea of "results" when it comes to homeschool but if you want to take advantage of these funds for educational field trips ... Expensive curriculum ... Books ... Software ... Coop organizations ... Music instructors ... Sports leagues... Etc... Show receipts and then get your funding at the end of the year...
Obviously I don't have all the answers but I choose to look at this issue as a "It can be done" situation and then you work out the details rather than a "It can't be done" and you go out to prove it.

Good talk... Lets keep it going...

I just got some mail today about a new charter school opening up in my community.. A science academy... Interesting information.

All private schools make the kids take a test. Many have standards that only the top 20% can pass. What do you do with the middle test score kids. In most public schools now they are just numbers. So are you going to open a school that caters to the below top 20% in the class to the special needs kids.

And what about the special needs kids. Who will take care of them. Will your new private school provide them with a nurse, like public schools must. Or there transportation needs. Who supplies and pays for the little bus to come to there house each day, like a public school must. Some of these speacal needs kids can cost a school district 60k a year, is your vouchers going to cover that cost. Because right now, most private schools are only equip to handle the brightest kids, that have now special needs,ie wheelchair, blind.

The are just to many holes in the answer to " just give the parents the money" for this to be the widespread solution to our education problems.